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 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
If you read the quote of this passage in Hebrews 2:7, the greek is clear that it says "angels." The passage in Hebrews 2:7 is quoting Psalm 8:5, and in the LXX (Greek OT, which the NT writers would have used), it also says "angels."
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Stever's response:

Why would the New Testament Writers, who were Jews use the LXX, ever? When Christ said that NOT one jot nor one tittle was missing, and would not pass away from the Law until Heaven & earth passed away--- He was not talking about the LXX. He was talking to Jews about the Hebrew Bible (the only Bible God allowed them to read) that was passed down from Moses and the Prophets (that was inspired by the Holy Spirit). Only Levites were allowed to copy and pass it down (not Hebrew "Scholars" that supposedly translated it into Greek). The Hebrew Bible (The Old Testament--Tanakh) is the one they would have studied and trusted, while they were living and writing the New Testament in Koine Greek.


Mat 5:18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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Would appreciate your response.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/2/13 22:56









 Re: "SACRED TRUST GIVEN TO THE LEVITES TO SAFEGUARD THE SCRIPTURES"

Quote:

Stever wrote:
Quote:

Only the Levites were allowed by God to write His Words



KingJimmy's response to Stever:

This is simply untrue and has no Biblical basis to it whatsoever.

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Stever's response to KingJimmy:

You should spend some time Studying the Old Testament! You don't even know what you are talking about! God placed all sacred things in the hands of the Levites-please study Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy.

Jews Entrusted With Scripture.

"What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1-2.

God told Moses in Deuteronomy 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Again in Deuteronomy 12:32, God said "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Because of this command, the Jewish Torah was not copied in a haphazard fashion. The process was so accurate it still amazes historians today. For thousands of years, Jewish scribes carefully copied the original manuscripts of sacred Scriptures without any error.

Notice the beginning of the history of biblical preservation: "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the LEVITES, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee," Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

Here we see the beginning of the SACRED TRUST GIVEN TO THE LEVITES TO SAFEGUARD THE SCRIPTURES. The "writings of words" referred to here are the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, also known as the Law or Torah (Hebrew ) or Pentateuch (Greek). From that time forward, the religious leaders of Israel became the zealous guardians of the Scriptures. Later, after the Babylonian captivity of Judah, these Scriptures were practically worshipped as much as was the Creator Himself. It could be said that the love that the Jews had for the Law was tantamount to idolatry! They watched over these Sacred Writings more carefully than any other possession in the Holy Land. Joshua, Moses' successor, also instructed the Israelites to have a special concern for all the words of the Law, Joshua 8:35. In the time of Joshua, the entirety of the Torah was read to the children of Israel. A great reverence for the Scripture had developed within one generation after the Exodus. We also see that, the Levites were not the only ones involved in preserving the Scriptures. God knew that the day would come when His people would reject Him as their king and that they would insist on having a human king, Deuteronomy 17:14-15.

But notice what God instructed the new king to do: "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them," verses 18-19.

The kings of Israel not only had to study and obey the Law, they also had to write their own personal copies of that Law!

THE RULES OF COPYING

Now, the result of this reverence was the creation of a system of copying which is nothing less than astounding. The LEVITES had to create a system of making new copies of the Bible as old copies wore out and had to be destroyed. They knew it would be easy to make a mistake in copying a new transcript, so here is what they did. They developed elaborate and meticulous rules for transcribing. They decreed that when a person was making a new text, he had to copy the original page with such exactness that the number of words on a page could not be changed. If the original page had 288 words, then the page being copied had to have the same 288 words. Each line on a new page had to be the exact same as the line on the old page. If the first line on the original page had nine words, the first line on the copy page had to have nine words. After a page was copied, the number of letters on that page was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, each letter was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, someone would check to see what the middle letter was on the copy and the original.

"A synagogue roll must be written on the skins of clean animals, the length of each column must not extend less than 48 or more than 80 lines; the breadth must consist of 30 letters. No word or letter, not even a yod, must be written from memory... Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread must intervene, between every book three lines. Besides this the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, and wash his whole body" (Hebrew Text of the Old Testament, Davidson). The scribes were not allowed to copy sentence for sentence or even word for word. They had to copy letter for letter. After a page was copied and checked by another, still a third person would check to see what the middle word was on the page. Then, when the whole book was finished, another would count the phrases. This process was so accurate they could pinpoint the exact middle of a book simply by letter count and would check the verse at that point as one of the methods of confirmation. If a single error was found, the entire manuscript was destroyed to ensure that it could never be used as a master copy in the future.

These are just a few examples of the great detail that went into ensuring the accuracy of the Scriptures. There were many more steps taken in the process. All of this could be characterized as a "fence to the Scriptures (Massorah) because it locked all words and letters in their places... It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, etc... All this ...for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss or misplacement of a single letter or word" (Bullinger, The Companion Bible).

The Role of the Scribes
The ancient Israelites kept a copy of the Scriptures in the first Temple. They put it inside the Ark of the Covenant. This copy became known as "The Temple Scriptures." Even though the first temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken to Babylon, the Scriptures were preserved. In the Babylonian captivity, A GROUP OF LEVITES WHO BECAME KNOWN AS THE SCRIBES painstakingly copied and disseminated the Scriptures to other Jews. One of the most important historical figures during this time was Ezra. He was not only a scribe, but the last of the Old Testament prophets. He probably wrote Chronicles and is said to have fixed the Old Testament canon around 400 B.C. After the Jews returned to Palestine, the Scribes continued to take an active part in preserving and distributing the Scriptures. When the second temple was built, another master copy was put in the Holy Place. Even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Scribes continued their work.

What Does the Bible Say About The Scripture?
1. "The WORDS (extent of preservation) of the Lord are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven time. THOU (agent of preservation, God) shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation FOR EVER (period of preservation)." Psalms 12:6,7 This verse shows that the very WORDS are inspired and preserved by God, not just the ideas or teaching.
2. "For verily I say un to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled," Matthew 5:18. Jesus had a chance to correct the scribes if they were wrong. Not only did He not make any corrections, but He insisted that "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35).
3. Our Lord Jesus Christ said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS shall not pass away," Matthew 24:35. He did not say that His Word would not pass away. He testified that the very WORDS would stand forever.
4. "The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever," Psalms 33:11. What is the counsel of the Lord? The Word of God. How long does this verse say it will stand?
5. "and His truth endureth to all generations," Psalms 100:5c Every generation will have a copy of the Word of God.
6. Psalms 111:7, 8 says, "ALL his commandments are sure. They stand fast FOR EVER and EVER." If I understand this correctly, God will preserve EVERY commandment FOR EVER.
7. How about this one? "Thy word is true from the beginning; AND EVERY ONE OF THY RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENTS ENDURETH FOREVER," Psalms 119:160.
8. "But the word of our God shall stand for ever" Isaiah 40:8b Pretty self-explanatory.
9. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS shall not pass away," Matthew 24:35. Notice the emphasis He place on the WORDS. Again, not just his ideas but the very words.
10. In Matthew 28:19,20 Jesus required the church to teach ALL THINGS whatsoever he commanded. How could the church teach ALL THINGS from a Bible with thousands of deletions, additions, and changes?
11. "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one tittle of the law to fail," Luke 16:17. A tittle is smaller than an apostrophe.


God bless,

Stever


[u][b]SACRED TRUST GIVEN TO THE LEVITES TO SAFEGUARD THE SCRIPTURES[/b][/u]
[i][b]"A GROUP OF LEVITES WHO BECAME KNOWN AS THE SCRIBES" [/b][/i]

 2006/2/14 0:17
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
Why would the New Testament Writers, who were Jews use the LXX, ever? When Christ said that NOT one [i]jot nor one tittle[/i] was missing, and would not pass away from the Law until Heaven & earth passed away--- He was not talking about the LXX. He was talking to Jews about the Hebrew Bible (the only Bible God allowed them to read)




Stever,

Please do not take the strong language I'm about to use as an attack against you, but I feel it neccessary in this situation.

The quote above from which I quoted you only shows the ignorance and absolute absurdity of your position that you are taking. The words for "Jot" and "Tittle" are Yod (Hebrew) and Iota (GREEK). The two smallest articles from both the Hebrew language (Thus the Hebrew Scriptures) and the GREEK language (Thus the LXX). To say that Christ was excluding the LXX is complete nonsense.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2006/2/14 0:51Profile









 Re:

Dear Hurley:

The Law prohibited anyone other than the Levite to have anything to do with the Scripture. If you look at the "long post" that I posted, you will find Scripture that supports that truth.

Just because Christ used a Greek word when he gave his example does not mean that he was referring to the LXX.

Do you seriously think that the Saducees and the Pharasees would have anything to do with the LXX, based upon what the Law demanded of them? Would Christ even refer to the LXX, that was prohibited in His own Law?


God bless,

Stever

P.S.
Some Scriptural examples of who the Levites (Scribes) were and what they were all about:

1. "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee," [Deuteronomy 31:24-26.]

In ancient times, scribes were Levites that held various important offices in the public affairs of the nation. The Hebrew word so rendered (sopher) is first used to designate the holder of some military office (Judg. 5:14; A.V., "pen of the writer;" R.V., "the marshal's staff;" marg., "the staff of the scribe"). The scribes acted as secretaries of state, whose business it was to prepare and issue decrees in the name of the king (2 Sam. 8:17; 20:25; 1 Chr. 18:16; 24:6; 1 Kings 4:3; 2 Kings 12:9-11; 18:18-37, etc.).

They discharged various other important public duties as men of high authority and influence in the affairs of state.

Scribes were also engaged in various ways as writers. Such, for example, was Baruch, who "wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord" (Jer. 36:4, 32).

In later times, after the Captivity, when the nation lost its independence, the scribes turned their attention to the law, gaining for themselves distinction by their intimate acquaintance with its contents. On them devolved the duty of multiplying copies of the law and of teaching it to others (Ezra 7:6, 10-12; Neh. 8:1, 4, 9, 13).

It is evident that in New Testament times the scribes belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, who supplemented the ancient written law by their traditions (Matt. 23), thereby obscuring it and rendering it of none effect. The titles "scribes" and "lawyers" (q.v.) are in the Gospels interchangeable (Matt. 22:35; Mark 12:28; Luke 20:39, etc.). They were in the time of our Lord the public teachers of the people, and frequently came into collision with him. They afterwards showed themselves greatly hostile to the apostles (Acts 4:5; 6:12).

Some of the scribes, however, were men of a different spirit, and showed themselves friendly to the gospel and its preachers. Thus Gamaliel advised the Sanhedrin, when the apostles were before them charged with "teaching in this name," to "refrain from these men and let them alone" (Acts 5:34-39; compare 23:9)."


 2006/2/14 1:15









 Re: Who were the Scribes in in the Bible?

Stever writes:

Please find the following Scripture, which paints a picture to us of the importance of the Scribes (who were all Levites):

Ancient:
[Deuteronomy 31:24-26.] "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the LEVITES, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee,"

Judges 5:14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

Wore an inkhorn at their girdles.

Ezekiel 9:2-3 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

FAMILIES CELEBRATED FOR FURNISHING;

Kenites.

1 Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Zebulun.

Judges 5:14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

Levi.

1 Chronicles 24:6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.
2 Chronicles 34:13 Also they were over the bearers of burdens, and were overseers of all that wrought the work in any manner of service: and of the Levites there were scribes, and officers, and porters.

Generally men of great wisdom.

1 Chronicles 27:32 Also Jonathan David's uncle was a counsellor, a wise man, and a scribe: and Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons:

Often learned in the law.

Ezra 7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.

Were ready writers.

Psalms 45:1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

ACTED AS

Secretaries to kings.

2 Samuel 8:17 And Zadok the son of Ahitub, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, were the priests; and Seraiah was the scribe;

2 Samuel 20:25 And Sheva was scribe: and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests:

2 Kings 12:10 And it was so, when they saw that there was much money in the chest, that the king's scribe and the high priest came up, and they put up in bags, and told the money that was found in the house of the LORD.

Esther 3:12 Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring.

Secretaries to prophets.

Jeremiah 36:4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
Jeremiah 36:26 But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech, and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet: but the LORD hid them.

Notaries in courts of justice.

Jeremiah 32:11-12 So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open: And I gave the evidence of the purchase unto Baruch the son of Neriah, the son of Maaseiah, in the sight of Hanameel mine uncle's son, and in the presence of the witnesses that subscribed the book of the purchase, before all the Jews that sat in the court of the prison.

Religious teachers.

Nehemiah 8:2-6 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. ...

Writers of public documents.

1 Chronicles 24:6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.

Keepers of the muster-rolls of the host.

2 Kings 25:19 And out of the city he took an officer that was set over the men of war, and five men of them that were in the king's presence, which were found in the city, and the principal scribe of the host, which mustered the people of the land, and threescore men of the people of the land that were found in the city:
2 Chronicles 26:11 Moreover Uzziah had an host of fighting men, that went out to war by bands, according to the number of their account by the hand of Jeiel the scribe and Maaseiah the ruler, under the hand of Hananiah, one of the king's captains.
Jeremiah 52:25 He took also out of the city an eunuch, which had the charge of the men of war; and seven men of them that were near the king's person, which were found in the city; and the principal scribe of the host, who mustered the people of the land; and threescore men of the people of the land, that were found in the midst of the city.

Modern:

Were doctors of the law.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Wore long robes and loved pre-eminence.

Mark 12:38-39 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

Sat in Moses' seat.

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Were frequently Pharisees.

Acts 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

Esteemed wise and learned.

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Regarded as interpreters of Scripture.

Matthew 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

Their manner of teaching contrasting with that of Christ.

Matthew 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Condemned by Christ for hypocrisy.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Often offended at out Lord's conduct and teaching.

Matthew 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
Mark 2:6-7 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Tempted our Lord.

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

Active in procuring our Lord's death.

Matthew 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Luke 23:10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.

Persecuted the early Christians.

Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
Acts 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Acts 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,

Illustrated of well-instructed ministers of the gospel.

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

 2006/2/14 2:40
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Why would the New Testament Writers, who were Jews use the LXX, ever?



In ancient Palestine and the Mediteranian region, they used the LXX because they were not as comfortable with Hebrew as they were Greek. The further one got away from Jerusalem, the more they relied on the LXX. In fact, the LXX came into existance to supply people who could not read Hebrew with a translation of the Scriptures in the vernacular. Since Koine Greek was the vernacular, a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures were made avaialable in such.

If you actually study the Scriptures, and compare quotations of the Old Testament within the New, you will find that when you reference something in the NT from the OT, the quotes don't always exactly match. Sometimes, there is even a noticable difference. There are a number of reasons for this.

Chief among them is that often the New Testament writer is quoting from the LXX, and not the Hebrew. The fact of the matter is, the LXX was the Bible of the early Church. That's not to say they never made use of the Hebrew Scriptures. However, they never cited the Scriptures in Hebrew when they did, as is evidenced by the fact that our NT is written in Greek, instead, they would provide their own translation in Greek.


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Jimmy H

 2006/2/14 10:30Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

But notice what God instructed the new king to do: "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them," verses 18-19.

The kings of Israel not only had to study and obey the Law, they also had to write their own personal copies of that Law!



And thus, the statement you made is entirely untrue. The fact that the king was to make a copy of the Law, and was of the tribe of Judah, shows that it was not simply the business of the Levites, and solely the Levites, to make copies of the Scriptures. Nor were they the only ones to do so. Nor is there any command in all of the Law that they are only ones permitted to do so. For that matter, many of the prophets were not even from Levi.

In fact, individuals were to have phylacteris on them containing miniature parts of the Scriptures, and people were to write the Law upon their doorposts, etc.

No doubt, the Levites had a major role in copying the Hebrew Scriptures, but they were, in fact, not the only ones that did. For that matter, even though they had an elaborate system for copying the Scriptures, copyists mistakes still slipped in the copies that were made of the OT. You can deny this all you want, but the fact that we have differing Hebrew manuscripts proves this to be the case.


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Jimmy H

 2006/2/14 10:50Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Steve,

Could you just please give us the link to the web site that you copy & paste from instead of posting entire articles that were written by other people on the site? It would be much easier to read this thread if you actually did.

For I believe the nature of the forums if for discussion, and not simply spamming long articles. Also, it might be more fruitful if you actually DISCUSS things, instead of simply spamming.


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Jimmy H

 2006/2/14 10:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: "Would Christ even refer to the Septuagint?"

Stever's

Quote:
Do you seriously think that the Saducees and the Pharasees would have anything to do with the LXX, based upon what the Law demanded of them? Would Christ even refer to the LXX, that was prohibited in His own Law?


Well, as a matter of fact he did, although I am sure you will find some reason to disbelieve it.

Here is an English equivalent of the Masoretic text, in other words the KJV“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;” (Is 61:1-2 KJVS)
Now here is a quotation from Luke's account: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and [u]recovering of sight to the blind[/u], to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” (Luke 4:18-19 KJVS)I have underlined a line in Luke's account which you will find missing in the original Masoretic text. This is interesting in that Luke says "...when he had opened the the book, he found the place [u]where is was written...[/u]" But the words "recovering of sight to the blind" are not WRITTEN in the Masoretic text, so how did Jesus read them?


Well. he read them from here...1 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent 1me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, [u]and recovery of sight to the blind[/u]; 2 to declare the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of recompence; to comfort all that mourn; [b]This is [/b](an English translation of)[b] the Septuagint.[/b] the Greek translation of the OT scriptures used from c200BC. [i]Galilee of the Gentiles[/i] was predominantly a Greek speaking part of the land. It seems that the synagogues in Galilee were actually using the Septuagint! This has been disputed but I think the most natural reading and understanding of Luke 4:17 demands it. It is almost indisputable that Christ spoke Greek as well as He spoke Aramaic. It is inconceivable that Pilate could have conducted the conversation of John 18:33-38 in Aramaic. The only other alternative is that Christ spoke in Greek.


[i]Server's posts have now become such a mixture of misinformation and illogicality that it becomes increasingly difficult to provide sensible answers to them. [/i]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/14 13:58Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Server's posts have now become such a mixture of misinformation and illogicality that it becomes increasingly difficult to provide sensible answers to them.



This sadly is the typical result of individuals who take a dogmatic-you'll-never-convince-me-otherwise stance concerning the KJV-only debate. Sadly, many people will believe all sorts of hearsay (e.g. so and so was a homosexual) that they read on web sites and such, yet they actually don't deal with any real evidence at hand, evidence from the Scriptures they so claim to cherish.

It's fatalistic and spiritual suicide. We should always remain teachable, and humbly open to being shown where we might err in. We should be truth seekers.

If one really wants to see if the KJV is in error, or is indeed, the best text, here is a suggestion: in the amount of time you spend researching this stuff on web sites that perhaps are not credible sources to begin with, and debating it on the internet, you could have probably earned a masters degree in textual criticism.

Yet, after all your years and hours of research on the internet, you never once actually come any closer to knowing the truth of the matter. All you have is hearsay: such and such person says such and such. The fact of the matter is, you'll never actually know for yourself, and it is dangerous to be dogmatic about information you have only from second hand sources.

What you should actually do is go pickup some Greek and Hebrew grammars, and spend a couple years learning these languages. Perhaps take some night classes at your local Bible college or Seminary if studying on your own is not your thing.

Because, frankly, unless you can read the Scriptures in the original languages (and no, if you know anything about languages, opening a Strnog's Concordinance is not a valid substitute), and compare the many textual variants out there, you'll NEVER really be able to say with any real certainty if the Byzantene texts are better than the Alexandria or Western texts. You'll also never be able to determine which of the English translations is most faithful to the original languages.

This subject matter requires real, serious, disciplined, hard study. There are so many complexities to the area of textual criticism and translation. If I were to show you a UBS4 and NA27 (Critical Greek editions of the NT), many of you would be baffled beyond comprehension.

Word to the wise: STUDY.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/2/14 14:50Profile





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