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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "You shall love the Lord"

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi almondbranch,

I posed the question to bring response. Who could only fill the position of the order of Melchizedec in the Old Testament?

Back at you
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/17 11:23Profile
almondBranch
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Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Hi Jeff, can you elaborate?

I am not entirely certain as to what you are asking. Is it in connection with people being born again in the OT, and the work of the Spirit at that time? or is this somthing else?

Thank you, and sorry if I am asking a stupid question I have just lost the train of thought.

Stuart.


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Stuart

 2003/12/17 14:06Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Stuart,

I believe that the law of faith which justifies man before God was established since Genesis 3:15. The One who occupies the priestly order of Melchizedec is Jesus Christ. Prior to the incarnation of Christ, Jesus is Melchizedec. No one but God could officiate as high priest in the order of Melchizedec. Only Jesus the mediator of the new covenant could offer those who say, Yes Lord, the righteousness which comes from above. One can only be born from above a second time. What does the order of Melchizedec have to offer the elect? "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts: and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.' Hebrews 8:10-11.

This is the offering that is identified as specific to the order of Melchizedec. The order of Melchizedec had no beginning and no end. All are condemned by the removal of God's righteousness from man when Adam fell. Jesus the second man came to restore His righteousness in those who believe. Those who says Yes Lord. There have always been a remnant througout the generations who are born from above. Otherwise faith would could not exist in depraved man.

What do you say
in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/17 15:14Profile
almondBranch
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Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Hi Jeff thanks for calrifying.

You are basicaly saying that Christ was administering the new covenant during the period before his death to all who believed, and that the faith they had was proof of this because only the regenerate have faith. Would that be your view?

Instead of saying that man needs to be regenerate to have faith the bible would seem to say that man needs faith to be born again. You might say that this faith is given by God soverignly, that's fine, but still if a depraved man can be given faith for regeneration he can be given faith for imputed righteousness.

Melchizedek's dealings with Abraham may well foreshadow the New Covenant but I don't believe that this covenant was in effect at the same time as the old. It is prophesied about in the old "Behold, [u]the days come[/u], saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

The "this is that" of the day of pentecost is refering to somthing that was to come and had now come. What was it?

Stuart


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Stuart

 2003/12/18 6:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi brother Stuart,

Jesus teaches us in John 3, that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. SO IS EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." John 3:8 I believe we have made much of this idea of being born again. We ask a new convert did you experience something, do you feel different? These same people will say that because you had the experience you therefore are born again. Then they teach that once you had that experience you are the elect. Now I believe there is some truth in all of that. And I say this in regards to your thought:

Quote:
Instead of saying that man needs to be regenerated to have faith the Bible would seem to say that man needs faith to be born again...



I prefer the translation of born again, to be more correct in saying that we are born from above. As I believe Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, no one can tell from where or when the Holy Spirit began calling us. The Holy Spirits work is to convict us of sin, to declare Jesus's righteousness, and to condemn satan. I believe the Holy Spirit works to convince everyone of their need for God. I can look back in various time in my life "before Christ" and I now can see how God was calling me. So in answer to thought, "the bible seems to say that man needs faith to be born again" I believe that God proves to us that He is. When we turn to Him because of His calling, even thought our faith is as small as a mustard seed, we begin a new life because we are born from above. God calls all. Those who say Yes Lord will find the work of our High Priest in heaven, inplanting His word into our hearts, and we will know Him.

The book of Hebrews uses the word shadow whenever it speaks of the covenant on Mount Sinai. To me, the thought of shadow does not say that something does not exist. Rather the heavenly sanctuary existence is everlasting. It is only when we begin to follow Jesus does he clear the shadows away so that we can see the heavenly things. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things and you DO NOT BELIEVE, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" Only Jesus can lift the veil that prevents us from seeing the things which create the shadows of our understanding.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/18 11:22Profile
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Joined: 2003/10/6
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Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:
believe we have made much of this idea of being born again. We ask a new convert did you experience something, do you feel different?



Sure, I agree. But really, we are discussing the Spirit's work, how people misrepresent it doesn't change it. :-)
Quote:
I prefer the translation of born again, to be more correct in saying that we are born from above.



No problem. But what we are discussing is that this is somthing that God has added to us in this better covenant. Undoubtedly John the Baptist had faith in Christ but as Jesus said there is somthing more than what John had.


In relation to the sahdows being of that which already existed. Aboslutely, these things existed in Christ since before the foundation of the world.

I think I have some understanding of where you are coming from but I am curious to know if you think there is any difference at all in the Spirit's work since calvary.

Thank you, Stuart.


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Stuart

 2003/12/18 12:39Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

The blood of Christ has opened up heaven. Prior to Jesus' sacrifice, the old testament saints lived in the bosom of Abraham. One compartment held the condemned, the other compartment the saint. We and they were made perfect by the blood. "God having provided something better for us, THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT APART FROM US." The time of the work of Christ within this world does not hold His sacrifice within our limitations of time. The work of God stands outside of His creation.

John the Baptist came preaching that the kingdom was at hand. Jesus preached of the good news of the kingdom. Yet Jesus and His disciples did not teach that He would die for their sins. Search it out in the Gospels and see for yourself.

"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER WOMB." What does this work of the Holy Spirit mean in terms of what is usually taught.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/18 17:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff wrote "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER WOMB." What does this work of the Holy Spirit mean in terms of what is usually taught.

John Baptist was specially equipped to do a special task. In OT terms he was a 'man of the Spirit' in the terms of that Covenant, which was an external covenant. I know of three (4) occasions in the OT (remember the NT experience begins in Acts 2) which speak of the Spirit on the inside; there may be more. The ones that spring to mind are Bezaleel and Aholiab, Ezekiel, and John Baptist. In each occasion these were standard OT experiences of the Spirit of God equipping men for unique tasks and responsibilities. There is no reference to the Spirit changing the character of these men. There is no reference to the coming of the Spirit uniting these men to God in the pattern of 'I am in my Father and my Father is in me'.

On only 2 (3) occasions does the OT refer specifically to the 'Holy' Spirit, and on each occasion it is in contrast to the sinfulness of God's people. But the key revelation of the Spirit in the NT is that He is Holy. He comes in the power of the New Covenant, not primarily to empower to do, but to be.

The distinctive themes of the New Covenant experience of the Spirit are
1. He is with you and shall be in you. It has been said that the greatest truths of the New Testament lie in its prepositions.
2. In that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you. He could not be in them while He was


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/19 15:36Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

First one must BE before one can DO. God can not share His righteousness with men who have not been reconciled to Him.

"My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter PURE KNOWLEDGE, the SPIRIT OF GOD HAS MADE ME, and the BREATH of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Elihu was a spiritual man.

"So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, HE BREATHED ON THEM, and said to them, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT." John 20;21-22 The disciples were spiritual men before Pentecost.

"Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."....Then He said to them,"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were writen in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. AND HE OPENED THEIR UNDERSTANDING, THAT THEY MIGHT COMPREHEND THE SCRIPTURES." Luke 24:36-45 Only through the Holy Spirit could the disciples see the spiritual things of God.

Only through the Holy Spirit can man understand the things of Spirit.

"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:13.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/19 16:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff, I think you are right to connect the Jphn 20:21,22 and Luke 24:36-45 references. I think it is the same event. The significant thing is that those who 'received the Spirit' in John 20:21,22 were told to 'Tarry' in the city of Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high.

This shows that Pentecost was additional to the experience of John 20:21,22

There is a fascinating parallel to this in Exodus 24 where the Mediator of the Covenant goes up to God and is covered by a cloud. Prior to his ascent he says 'Tarry, ye here'. Jewish Rabbis have always associated the feast of Pentecost with the giving of the Law. In the fulfillment of the shadow we see Christ ascend, cloud covered, with his disciples commanded to 'Tarry'. Pentecost was the giving of the Law, both times. Christ received, from His Father, the promise of the Father i.e. the Spirit and poured him out on all flesh. In the reality of Pentecost the Spirit brings the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and writes it in the hearts of his people. This Law is not a list of commands and prohibitions but a new nature.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/20 9:15Profile





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