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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: which promise?

Jeff wrote Are we children of the same promise?

Hebrews 11 contains a long list of men and women who believed God, and who had the witness that they were righteous [Heb 11:4 etc] To ensure that we do not mistake what is being said here we are talking about the righteousness which is by faith [Heb 11:7]

However, Hebrews 11 concludes with And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect

They were 'justified' and had 'witness borne to them through their faith' and yet they received not the promise

Surely there could not be a clearer statement than they 'received not the promise'.

However, to forestall questions about whether or not they were 'saved' or 'went to heaven' I would draw attention to
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb 12:22-24

They city that they 'looked for', we have 'arrived at', only to find that they are already there, now 'made perfect'. For them, eternal life was a future prospect, for us it is a present tense reality. As we read earlier God having provided some better thing concerning us


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 2:01Profile
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 Re:

My question is refering to Galatians 4:28-29. "NOW WE brethren, AS Isaac WAS are children of promise. But as he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was BORN ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, even so it is now."

To place this into context, Paul is writing to the Galatians, who began in the Spirit but now were trying to become perfect by the flesh. In this chapter, Paul is addressing those under the law and those born from above. Is this promise that Isaac and we share, the same promise that is spoken of in Hebrews 11:11?

In addressing your thoughts Ron, on Romans 5, and expressing that the new covenant is much more than the old. I agree, the old covenant made nothing perfect and this covenant does not anull the covenant that was made with Abraham 430 prior. "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years LATER, CANNOT ANNUL THE COVENANT that was confirmed before by God IN CHRIST, THAT IT SHOULD MAKE THE PROMISE OF NO EFFECT." Galatians 3:17 Please understand that both covenants existed together for a time. The law of Mount Sinai made 430 years later, does not effect the promise made through Abraham in Christ Jesus. Please focus on these words, "That it should make the promise of no effect." Paul is saying that the promise had effect on those of the old testament. The law of Mount Sinai was given to a nation to teach them about sin. The law of faith was introduced to Abraham which teaches us about God.

Finally, the idea of being made perfect. With the blood of Christ everyone who lived by the law of faith was made perfect. You are correct that the sins were only covered prior to Christ's blood. In Chapter 3 of Romans, Paul addresses this issue. "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to DEMONSTRATE His righteousness, because in His FORBEARANCE GOD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED,..." Romans 3:25. Like wise Hebrews 9:26, addresses the same precept,"He then would have had to suffer OFTEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Why would the author state that Jesus would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world. What is his point?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 10:52Profile
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 Re:

Jeff,
You may be talking about Galatians and the Old (Sinai) Covenant but Hebrews is talking about people who were pre-Sinai as well as post. Justification crosses all covenants and reaches people who are not even in covenants.

Hebrews' 'better thing' is not just a contrast with Sinai saints but with Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah too. Romans 5 is not a contrast with the Old Covenant but with Abraham before he was in any covenant.

To understand what Paul means by 'according to Spirit' we need to remember that he is talking about a time when Isaac was just weaned. Ancient weaning was later than modern, but 2-3years would be the outside limit. Do you think Isaac was 'born again' when he was 3 years old?

Isaac was born in direct consequence of the promise and in that sense his birth was 'according to Spirit' as distinct from Ishmael who was 'according to flesh'. But this is not a reference to regeneration but to the Spirit's initiation.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. in each case 'of' is 'ek' meaning 'out of' indicating origin. This is regeneration.

according to Spirit is 'kata' meaning with reference to. This is not regeneration.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 12:20Profile
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 Re:

Hi Ron,

Let me ask this question in another way.

"How then can man be righteous before God? How then can he be pure who is born of woman? If even the moon does not shine, and the stars are not purein His sight, how much less man, who is a maggot, and a son of man, who is a worm?" Job 25:4-6

The answer to this question is found in Job 33:26, "He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, he shall see His face with joy, for He RESTORES to man HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

If Job was a maggot or worm, is it possible for him to know God? Is it possible that God would delight in a depraved man who cannot obey Him? The work of God is that He restores to man His righteousness. This precept is not only in words of legality but this precept brings about a change in the depraved man. It has effect. The promise made to Abraham has effect.

Back at you,
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 12:44Profile
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 Re:

Jeff
you wrote The work of God is that He restores to man His righteousness. If you are distinguishing between imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness, I am with you. But imputed righteousness is what is effected by justification by faith. Imparted righteousness, the gift of righteousness brings us back to Romans 5 again. [Rom 5:17] which chapter also includes the phrase that through the obedience of one shall many be constituted righteous

Covering, remission of sins, not keeping an account of sins, righteousness reckoned to my account, is all the blessing of the God who justifies the ungodly. Now we are back in Romans 4. This is what Abraham found. Abraham's faith was 'reckoned' to him for righteousness. Abraham had many wonderful blessings but his 'constitution' was never changed.

This is where the New Covenant starts too, but it goes much farther. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezek 36:26ff. This is imparted righteousness, and this is new covenant.

Only God on the inside, I will put my spirit within you, could accomplish this. And God on the inside is the distinguishing feature of the New Covenant. but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The God of glory revealed Himself to Abraham. [Acts 7] but Paul's testimony is authentic New Covenant it pleased God to reveal His son in me [Gal 1]


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 14:00Profile
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 Re:

Hi Ron,

Imputed righteousness I agree with your explanation. Imparted righteousness I agree with your explanation. However, I have not heard, based on Scripture why the work of the Holy Spirit is not the same always. You see, according to Scripture, the Father is the same always, the Son is the same always, so is not the Spirit the same always. I ask this question in context of my post on original sin. No one has responded to my post, what do you say?

back at you
in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 14:26Profile
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 Re:

Jeff
I'll go back and take another look.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 14:39Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
However, I have not heard, based on Scripture why the work of the Holy Spirit is not the same always. You see, according to Scripture, the Father is the same always, the Son is the same always, so is not the Spirit the same always.



True, Jesus Christ the same yeterday, today and forever. But this does not mean his work is always the same in evry age. It means God's character is the same at all times.

A man sets out to build a house, he is always the same man, and always has the same ultimate goal but at different times his work is different; foundation, plastering, roofing etc.

God is not always creating. Jesus is not always dying, the holy Spirit was not always been available to indwell man. They have not changed but the work in progres at the moment has. When Jesus walked the earth he submitted to the cival authorities of his day. When he comes again, they will submit to him. Once Jesus was the Word in the bosom of the Father, at one time he was a baby in Mary's arms, another time dead and buried, but now ascended to the right hand of the Father in the glory. Same Lord.


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Stuart

 2003/12/16 18:06Profile
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 Re:

When I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same always, I was speaking in terms of how God chose to reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The priestly order of Melchizedec continues forever. "But this man, because he contunueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:24

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 21:44Profile
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Joined: 2003/10/6
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 Re:

Quote:
When I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same always, I was speaking in terms of how God chose to reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The priestly order of Melchizedec continues forever. "But this man, because he contunueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:24



Fair enough, but did you not have a question about the work of the Holy Spirit being different in the OT than in the NT?


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Stuart

 2003/12/17 6:23Profile





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