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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Quote:
To understand the power of what He did we must recognize that Jesus, in yielding to the Romans, made a powerful political statement about what HIS kingdom, his reign would be like.




According to Scripture there will come a time when the world will see this "powerful political statemen," once again. And then, like in the first century, there will be Bonhoffer type believers.

And the world will hate them for being a living testimony of what they believe.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/1/14 18:48Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
A different form of a question, a quick question for Mike

Quote:
was not meant for you.



I am not sure how you would expect me to have taken it any differently...
Quote:
I would ask Jesus about the unrepentant hostility that reeks out of any response you direct towards me. Others have asked me in PM's about this, so.....thats just a suggestion. It really doesn't bother me, but it probably stumbles you a bit.



Well, perhaps we are both to blame here Neil, reading past or into things. But you couldn't be more wrong in that assessment of a particular hostility towards you, repentance is a given towards anything of the sort. But to have a particular questioning of the things you post here is to the issue not towards you as a person. I love your zeal brother always have, just some of the political things that get thrust out here and from the sources they come from, the verbal slandering, the hostility of their words, they have to be addressed brother.

Regarding the PM's I am not bothered either, but if there was an issue of this assumption, why was it not brought to my attention before?

Neil, this does seem to happen often enough even in other postings. Speaking in generalities here. To address one aspect another one gets brought in almost as an aside...
Quote:
To ask a completely different question, stripping it of it's 'for\against' constructs... Are there some things that might be better off not being known?

This question didn't get a response and that's fine, but it was with a preposition there. It just seems often times it is to launch forth with something else and then retort. A bit dubious to not notice the particular hostility contained in these words;
Quote:
step up now, in front of this forum and God and outline why you would be for concentration camps.....that is....if you WOULD be for them......


The peculiar thing is that in addressing things they can turn into personal assumptions, that what is being said is in actuality insinuating something else, are we that easily offended?

Another question that didn't get addressed from another post here;
Quote:
Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but is this another comparison between our government and Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany??..



It does appear that way from your response.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/14 21:28Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Jeff,

You posted a lot here. So much it is difficult to say in a few words what should be said….

First of all, the early church lived through several despotic rulers and never do we read of any Christians mounting insurrection against these evil men. It was to these rulers Paul told the Roman church to submit to. Nero was no saint. Early Christian rescued babies that were thrown away, risking their own lives in the process. They literally were as sheep among wolves.

Dietrich Bonhoffer, if I remember history, was imprisoned for being involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler, not because he was a Christian. Is this not a shameful thing for a Christian to be involved in? Does it not violate Scripture? And do you think God was not aware of the concentration camps?

About Bob Davis, executive director of Mennonite Central Committee: MCC has done a lot of good in their past however, they have politicized ‘peace making’ which is obnoxious to the conservative element of the Mennonite Church. They would bend over backwards to assist the enemy but at the same time work hard to discredit their own country’s leadership, in contrast to the Biblical command to honor your leaders. Liberal Mennonites have taken peace-making to a level that smacks of humanism. One time I called the head of the Victim Offenders Reconciliation Program (VORP) with some questions and I was told the program does not focus on evangelism. ( I immediately lost interest in THEM but still think the process has a lot to offer if Jesus is invited into the mix.) And adding insult to injury, they stalled a lllloooonnnnggg time before they came out against abortion. What am I saying? Liberal Mennonites are not inspiring. They have strayed far from their Anabaptist beginnings and are an embarrassment to other Mennonites.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/1/14 23:55Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Sister Ginnyrose wrote:

Quote:
Dietrich Bonhoffer, if I remember history, was imprisoned for being involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler, not because he was a Christian. Is this not a shameful thing for a Christian to be involved in? Does it not violate Scripture? And do you think God was not aware of the concentration camps?



I am sorry for my lack of care in labeling Bonhoffer as someone to emulate. I did not think of his efforts concerning Hitler. I used Bonhoffer at the moment to hold up my brother Neil. He is passionate for His Lord, but in retrospect I have not thought things through in the light of Scripture. Please forgive me.


Quote:
Liberal Mennonites are not inspiring. They have strayed far from their Anabaptist beginnings and are an embarrassment to other Mennonites.




Again, I did not know of the background of this individual or organization. I found this article in a very conservative newspaper for Lancaster County PA where we are moving to this summer.

With this said, what about the words of the article?

What about what was said of the power of the politics of His kingdom?

What about the idea of torture? Has anyone yet commented on the focus of this article?

In love

Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/1/15 10:10Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Torture

Quote:
What about the idea of torture? Has anyone yet commented on the focus of this article?



Hi Jeff,

Guess I am perhaps just gullible enough to see if I cannot eat past my foot up to the shinbone...

The earlier attempt and often enough is, to somehow distinguish between the way things [i]are[/i] and the way things [i]ought[/i] to be. From there on out it gets more difficult by way of what ought the Christian's response be.

Guessing that the obvious isn't enough sometimes, apologize, not attempting to be cute here, but is torture wrong? Need it be said? Do we get down into the minutiae? What I was appealing to in posing the question of "Are there some things that ought to be kept from us?" in that way is both that there will be these things in time of war irregardless of what we think is the 'right or wrong' of it and even the suggestion that it may be needed... Up to the knee now...

Think ginnyrose touched on this by way of appealing to scripture, alluding to something broadly first off;
Quote:
First of all, the early church lived through several despotic rulers and never do we read of any Christians mounting insurrection against these evil men. It was to these rulers Paul told the Roman church to submit to. Nero was no saint. Early Christian rescued babies that were thrown away, risking their own lives in the process. They literally were as sheep among wolves.



Think this as well as the other issues of Christians going to war, the whole pacifist argument or it's opposite 'just war'. These things find to me anyway, incomplete answers, I often just don't know.

This is a bit disjointed I realize. Going back to;

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."
2Ti 2:3-4

We can have a vast array of opinions about many things, political and otherwise. Personally and with great difficulty I can understand that there is a need for some rather unpleasant means of extracting out information from those who would resist giving it up of their own free will... How's that for a dodge? Am I really saying this?... Of course I don't [i]agree[/i] with it, but that is besides the point.

Surely it would be a better course of preaching the Gospel unto repentance to them but that likelihood doesn't seem to be much of an alternative.

Having said all that, would I 'support' this? This is what I was appealing to earlier, the 'neither' of it. It just [i][b]is[/b][/i]. "Within limit's" comes to mind, but again why is it that there is a need for the Christian to force an opinion on it? We have a totally different war to fight, with completely different weapons, why the entanglement with [i]the affairs of this life[/i]?

If it must be said, what of those others in the Hall of Faith, that second half there;

"[i]Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated-- of whom the world was not worthy--wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.[/i]"

Heb 11:36-40

There is the persecuted amongst us even now. What of their ungodly torture for simply [i]being[/i] Christian? Compare that with the minds bent on destroying ... again, hate to do the compare and contrast thing, but this is indeed fact, brutal as it is.

Wish I could recall just where it was, but a message from Art Katz really brought out the rather overlooked reality that is present in scripture. The sacrifices in the Old Testament. The blood and gut's of it all. He even appealed to his own soft hearted and heartbreaking reality of his beloved dog, if I remember it correctly was either diseased or had attacked someone and he had to kill him. I may be off on that point but recall that his dogs death and to any animal lover, pet owner, it is just like losing a member of ones family. But the point he was referring to was the 'seemingly' wastefulness and even perhaps the, hold on here now, thought, that God sees this flesh He created in a completely different light than we do. Surely He does hold it in less esteem than we do, having punished us all with death and therefore decay and has already spoken that [i]no flesh[/i] will glory in His sight. Am bound to do a lousy job of recalling all this but will give what my impressions were. One is that a great deal of all this rather unpleasant reality is for our sake. Why is it that we find these things repulsive, just as a reaction? The other is that there is just going to be some reality that we must face. Are we activists? Is that what we are called to? Again would appeal to how the issue brought forth here by Jeff comes to the fore. Humanism. Are we to appeal along those lines when we don't find this happening in scripture? What is more important to God, the natural or the Spiritual? Too 'heavenly minded'?

To be super extra redundant, It is NOT to say anything to the issue of should we not seek to lessen human suffering, should we not be compassionate ... The argument may well present it's self as a difficult one depending on the circumstances. How did Jim Elliot end up? With a spear in his head ...

The original question asked was "What would Jesus say about torture?"

One response was;

"[i]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?[/i]
Joh 21:18-23

Tradition has it, on a cross, upside down.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/15 12:27Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Torture

For more of a different perspective and some parallels to the mention of Art's take on the sacrificial system in contrast with the natural, the spiritual; [url=http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/priestliness.htm]Apostolic Service: Priestliness [/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/15 12:40Profile









 Re: Ginnyrose

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was arrested in April 1943 because money that had been used to help Jews escape to neutral Switzerland had been traced back to him. This was over a year before the attempt on hitler's life, as Bonhoeffer had NO part in the operational aspects of this assassination attempt. He also had an adroit pen, that was fearless in denouncing the demonic affluences of the nazi regime, which had him on hitler's hit list.

All of Bonhoeffer's resistance to the nazi regime was ROOTED IN SCRIPTURE. The same arguments that people on this forum use to show why we shouldn't denounce an illegal war, or term resistance to nazism as a "shameful thing", were the same types of ill-founded arguments that those who supported slavery in the United States used to denounce our heroic brothers and sisters who worked on the underground railroad as abolitionists.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer's heart and burden as a pastor was to rescue us Jews, that is never "shameful". You stumbled me, because as I resent your comment, I find myself resenting you, and thats not where I want my heartspace to be in the Lord.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a choice servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, who wrote what I regard as two of the finest theological tretises in the 20th century, "Life Together" and "The Cost of Discipleship". I urge you in the Lord to read these two books. Thank God this pastor gave us these two books before the demonic hitlerites snuffed his life out.

 2006/1/15 15:37









 Mike Balog

you asked:

Quote:
but is torture wrong?



dear brother, have you asked God to reveal that to you?

what did He say to you?

 2006/1/15 15:43









 Re: Jeff

you wrote:

Quote:
I am sorry for my lack of care in labeling Bonhoffer as someone to emulate. I did not think of his efforts concerning Hitler.



your first instincts were correct, Bonhoeffer IS the kind of believer to emulate. As I wrote to sister Ginnyrose, he was jailed simply for using money to help Jews escape from the sons of satan, these nazi's. He had no part in the operational planning of those within the Abwehr, which was the german version of the CIA.

Here's the thing, when those within the church..small c, whose political predilictions and tendencies run to the right wing, hear a believer speaking out against war and torture and institutionalized bureaucratic death systems, they will always misuse the same Scriptural references. They will tell you, don't speak out against injustice and mayhem and murder, (which are really just names for demons)instead they spend their time getting irate and indignant about a cross being taken off a city seal...while at the same time, the very nation they love is constructing a worldwide gulag of secret prisons, and the church is silent.

They are silent in the same way they were silent about slavery and it was only thru the efforts of a small segment of the Church of Jesus Christ who actually risked life and limb, RISKED THE CROSS, to counteract this satanic institution.

Mike B.....you want your answer now?

Torture is satanic.

Secret prisons are satanic.

This gulag of fear is NOT OF GOD, and its just a just a symptom of a much wider sickness, the same sickness that brings you a culture of abortion on demand, a culture that worships wealth and money, a culture that worships the military elite, worships the powerful and wealthy, a culture that worships entertainment and celebrity, its a culture that worships satan the god of this world. It's a culture of death, and in my heart and in my soul, Jesus has rescued me from it, and helped me to see the hypocrisy and the lies.

And one of the Lord's choicest servants to this end, is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a man whose walk I strive to emulate. I hope one day to have a thousand year prayer meeting with that dear man, and as a Jew, thank him for losing his life to help save mine.

 2006/1/15 16:03
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Neil,

In doing a search on the web about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I frequently come upon the statement about him being involved in a conspiracy to killed Hitler. It is true he was a Luthern clergyman, a pacifist, and a prolific writer. He also was helpful in saving the lives of Jews. As a person of Jewish heritage, I suspect you find my opinion of Mr. Bonhoeffer unsettling.

Neil, when we all appear before the Great White throne judgement it will not matter one twit what good we have done, how many lives we have saved from extermination, what will matter is how much we loved Jesus and how obedient we have been to Him!

Neil, please do not think for one minute it has only been the Jewish people who have suffered at the hands of persecutors. Many Anabaptists - which is my heritage - were killed/tortured for their faith, killed by Catholics, then Lutherns and other reformers. Now just in recent years the descendents of these persecutors invited the descendents of these Anabaptists to a meeting in which they apologized for their acts of violence done to them hundreds of years ago.

Now fast forward to the USA. During WWI Mennonite and Amish boys were tortured by the USA military for refusing to participate in their program. The USA has a checkered history in doing this to their own citizens, peace-loving people these were.

Jeff, the question about the original article has a lot to commend itself, but since I know where it is coming from, I suspect his agenda. Now about torture: No where do we read in the New Testement where Jesus condoned torture. It violates every law that deals with love. I cringe when I read how any govenments will use it for any reason. The methods they use to extract information from the enemy is shameful, especially if they use females to do it. Now the larger question comes up: can a Christian engage in warfare or be a part of the military? Then the Hitler question comes up....but does that change Jesus' teaching to love your enemies? No. Jesus knew about Nero, Hitler, et al when that commandment was given.

Another important question: how do we rescue people who are being "led to the slaughter" without killing anyone or conspiring to kill anyone? I suggest one will need to walk close to the LORD and be obedient to the Holy Spirit and not take things in your own hands. The early church did this when they rescued babies that were thrown out to die; during the reformation (1500s) many Catholics, Lutherns, et al risked their lives and limbs to assist the persecuted; during WWII many gentiles risked their lives to save the Jews. In most of these cases, no one was killing or conspiring to kill...they were intent on saving the lives of people who were being hunted down for extermination.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/1/15 19:52Profile





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