Have reversed a lot of thinking about denominations as they are and without taking sides on the matter have begun to reaccess things. For all the problems associated with these distinctions there is much that can be lost by casting it out wholesale. For one, they exist and yet the Lord has seen fit to allow them to continue, that in itself proves nothing but it does give pause to go back to the 7 'churches' in Revelation and note the distinctions there. Each one had it's own particular 'problems' sans one and that is telling by note of what they each had as emphasis;
I met Herald Hsu last fall, he was able to tell me about the Taiwan episode; a sorry story it is.The fact is that the "Local Church" is a sect. They may claim not to be a denomination, but it is just the same; even though personally I think it is worse, just ask those who have managed to leave.This whole teaching about "locality" is one of those whom Paul called a doctrine of demons. It divides brothers and sisters in Christ in aterrible way.To everyone: stay clear of this movement. I am speaking from personal experience.Manfred
To everyone: stay clear of this movement. I am speaking from personal experience.
Graftedbranch,Just a few comments on what you are saying:1)
I have yet to find the hook, the hidden thing, the control, the hidden agenda... I have never been presured or coerced.
The teaching is high, and the apprecition for Witness Lee is high. No one denies this.
I can testify that in 30 years of involvement in Christiantiy, I have never found any group of people who were more commited to the living Christ, and never found such liberty of the Spirit, never such appreciation for the Bible, never such an experienctial knowlege of the Bible and its revelation, never such regard for the authority for the written Word, and never such a conciousness of reality among the believers.The church life is demanding, It demands that all the members maintain a close walk with Jesus Christ, daily fellowship with Him in His Word, participation in the meetings -And this requires the Cross, to deal with our Self life and it requires the ressurection Life of the resurrected Christ, in more than just doctrinal knowlege but in reality.
Elitism, sectarianism and exclusivism are typical features of a movement like the "Local Church". I know of quite a few local fellowships in different countries that were and are a true work of the Spirit, where Christ is present, and where He is doing a tremendous work.
This is a typical talk that promotes the elitism of this sect, like if they were the only ones to experience a true individual and corporate life in Christ.
But, when you come to the word of God, and to the revelelation in the bible as to God's eternal purpose and what He is ultimately after today in the church age, [u]there is nothing to compare[/u] with the reality and revelation which brother Watchman Nee saw, what He taught, and what the Lord Himself did through Him in recovering the reality of the church life, the inner life, and the practicality of the oneness of the body of Christ.
[u]It is not a matter of this or that man[/u] but the Word of God. IT is a matter of God's hearts desire and what Christ died to obtain.
And brother Lee, [u]in contrast[/u] to brother Sparks, was commited to this vision. He saw it, he stood on it, and he refused to cave to long standing tradition and would not yield on this point.
As a result, today, if you study the fruit of each one's ministry (as the scripture says, considering the outcome of a man's way of life, imitate his faith) what is the fruit of each man's life.
I don't know about T. Austin Sparks, but today in every continant, there are over 3000 local churches and millions of believers who are enjoying Christ as a result of the faithfulness of one man, brother Lee, who would not budge, whould not yeild, and would not cave to tradition but remained faithful to the revelalion and vision of brother Watchman Nee which is in reality the vision of the New Testament conserning Christ and the church.
But, when you come to the word of God, and to the revelelation in the bible as to God's eternal purpose and what He is ultimately after today in the church age, [u]there is nothing to compare with the reality and revelation which brother Watchman Nee saw[/u], what He taught, and what the Lord Himself did through Him in recovering the reality of the church life, the inner life, and the practicality of the oneness of the body of Christ.
And brother Lee, in contrast to brother Sparks, was commited to this vision. He saw it, he stood on it, and he refused to cave to long standing tradition and would not yield on this point.
Lee, like Paul said to Felix, "I was not disobediant to the hevenly vision." He saw what brother Nee saw and would not budge on this point. And as a result, there was a split between he and Sparks likex Paul and Barnabus. But as one can observe from the scriptures, bartnabus was never spoken of again.
I don't know about T. Austin Sparks, but today in every continant, there are over 3000 local churches and millions of believers who are enjoying Christ as a result of the faithfulness [u]of one man, brother Lee(/u], who would not budge, whould not yeild, and would not cave to tradition but remained faithful to the revelalion and vision of brother Watchman Nee which is in reality the vision of the New Testament conserning Christ and the church.
But to what vision are you reffering to? That man is becoming God and all the trash taught by Lee? If this is the "vision" you're talking about, it is but the vision of deception.
Hello dear saintsI may say that although I do not agree with all of Witness Lees teachings I certainly would never put him under the category of Satanist. Remember dear saints, judgment is of the Lord. In teaching the ruling principle is speaking the truth in love:Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:4-10Consider carefully the issues raised here and the manner in which they were addressed. I could see the points made by everyone and if I had to make a decision based on this discussion alone I would have to side with Graftedbranch simply because he has been least abrasive in his manner of addressing others. In my opinion it was never his intension to discuss Witness Lee as a person, but when attacks are made on servant of God whose teachings have been helpful in your walk with God, then the natural response is to say something in defense of him. In reality this thread is about unity in the church not about Witness Lee. If we could discus the issue of at hand then speak of Lee and his doctrines in separate thread we may avoid tension and misunderstanding.I have heard a lot of opinions in opposition to this teaching but I have heard very little word to back it from this thread. Consider the issue of examining the fruits of a teaching. We could take this to mean examine the teacher of examine those who he has taught. Personally I believe in both. Now if you are to say to me that you follow the way of Christ, the way of love how am I to receive this if the ministry of your words is not in patience, or in kindness or if is rude and easily angered. I do not mind admitting being wrong but if one says to me that what I saying is nonsense or the doctrine of devils I am offended because it is an attack in my character and on my ability to discern truth. I feel offended and grieved for Graftedbranch.Now I ask in all honesty if the intension is of correction was this correction administered in love? I personally do not feel very strongly about this issue so I am not saying one party is doctrinally right or wrong but in terms of attitude.May God in His grace bless us with fruit of the Spirit in meekness, esteeming others better than ourselves. Gabriel.
_________________James Gabriel Gondai Dziya