SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Authentic Biblical Christianity.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : T.Austin-Sparks (TAS) and Witness Lee (WL) - a short story - by Herald Hsu, student of Watchman Nee

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Have reversed a lot of thinking about denominations as they are and without taking sides on the matter have begun to reaccess things. For all the problems associated with these distinctions there is much that can be lost by casting it out wholesale. For one, they exist and yet the Lord has seen fit to allow them to continue, that in itself proves nothing but it does give pause to go back to the 7 'churches' in Revelation and note the distinctions there. Each one had it's own particular 'problems' sans one and that is telling by note of what they each had as emphasis;



The Lord said consering the tares not to root them up but allow them to continue.

The fact that denominations exist and the system exists is no varification of the Lord's approval of them. The Roman Cahtolic church predominated for 1000 years yet who among the protestants whould argue God's approval of the Roman system?

And did not all the religious leaders of Luther's day advance the same arguments and the same accusations against him calling them the cult of Luther, etc?

The Word of God is divisive. It divides soul and spirit. It divides Light from darkness, it divides truth from error, It divides Life from death, etc. But in so doing it unites all in body, one Spirit, One Lord, One faith, one baptism, one God and Father who is over all, through all, and in all.

And the fact that some have a burden to not only hold a docrrine of the oneness of all believers but to realise it in it's practical expression is not divisive.

One might notice that in Revelation the Lord addreseed the churches as "the church in Ephesis, the church in Smyrnea, the church in Thyatira, the church in Sardis, the Church in Philadelphia, the church in ladodicia, etc. The Lord addressed the churches as those in this or that locality.

He did not say, "to the church of Peter, the churches of Paul, the church of Apollos, etc." He said, the church in.... And a study of 1 Cor. will show that the Apostle was very exercised because they were dividing based on this or that person, etc. and brought them back to the One Christ and the one body (is Christ divided?).

But today we have something quite different from this. And because these divisions are so long standing, the attitude of most believers is, "well, this is just the way it is and God allows it and so we must not speak about it, lets just try to hold hands accross the walls and let things remain as they are and consentrate on preaching the gospel and but pray for revival". But if revival comes, what will it look like? Is God content with the situation? Why do revivals never last? Could it be that there is no proper wine skin to contain it? Could it be that when Revival begins to touch the standing institutions, there is resistance, there is suppression? once a system comes into place, in all of church history there has never been an internal dismanteling of it. There has never been reformation from the bottom up. Even the great reformation began as an attempt for inner renewal and revival within the Roman Church. But in the end, the institutions don't budge. And so they must go "outside the camp".

In all the word of God, in the New Testament, every church is designated by its locality. There is no distincions based on this person, that practice, this doctrine, etc. There is just "the church in".

and we meet as the church in...." why is this such an offense?

1 Cor. 1:2 "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints with all those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours."

Greaftedbranch

 2006/4/2 15:14Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re: Herald Hsu's testimony

I met Herald Hsu last fall, he was able to tell me about the Taiwan episode; a sorry story it is.

The fact is that the "Local Church" is a sect. They may claim not to be a denomination, but it is just the same; even though personally I think it is worse, just ask those who have managed to leave.

This whole teaching about "locality" is one of those whom Paul called a doctrine of demons. It divides brothers and sisters in Christ in aterrible way.

To everyone: stay clear of this movement. I am speaking from personal experience.

Manfred

 2006/4/3 13:38Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
To everyone: stay clear of this movement. I am speaking from personal experience.



I can only testify that I have met with the saints in the local church for 4 years, have been exposed to the whole thing if you will. And I have yet to find the hook, the hidden thing, the control, the hidden agenda.

Rather I have found saints who love the Lord Jesus, who seek to know Him, to experinece Him, to be found in Him and who exercise their spirit to function as living members of the body of Christ.

No one has ever knocked at my door to inquire of this or that, no one has ever demanded or asked for anything.

I have never been presured or coerced. But rather I have found real people, geniune believers, who are together seeking the Lord, seeking to Know Him, to walk with Him, and to manifest Him in every aspect of their living.

The teaching is high, and the apprecition for Witness Lee is high. No one denies this. But I can testify that in 30 years of involvement in Christiantiy, I have never found any group of people who were more commited to the living Christ, and never found such liberty of the Spirit, never such appreciation for the Bible, never such an experienctial knowlege of the Bible and its revelation, never such regard for the authority for the written Word, and never such a conciousness of reality among the believers.

The church life is demanding, It demands that all the members maintain a close walk with Jesus Christ, daily fellowship with Him in His Word, participation in the meetings vs. passive pew sitting, and daily concecration to the Living Christ.

But the demand is not outward, but inward. That is, the demand is not imposed but required by the Lord Himself to be one who ministers Life and not his own things.

And this requires the Cross, to deal with our Self life and it requires the ressurection Life of the resurrected Christ, in more than just doctrinal knowlege but in reality.

Graftedbranch

 2006/4/4 17:19Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re: T.Austin-Sparks (TAS) and Witness Lee (WL) - a short story - by Herald Hsu, student of Watchman

Graftedbranch,

Just a few comments on what you are saying:

1)

Quote:
I have yet to find the hook, the hidden thing, the control, the hidden agenda... I have never been presured or coerced.



Just visit these two sites and you'll find more than enough testimonies that contradicts what you say:

http://www.thethreadofgold.com/

http://thebereans.net/forum/index.php?board=21.0

2)
Quote:
The teaching is high, and the apprecition for Witness Lee is high. No one denies this.



The so-called "height" of this teaching actually reaches into the "[i]depths of Satan[/i]". Concerning the high appreciation of Lee, it is very very marginal; it is in fact limited to his own circle - I for one deny it.

3)
Quote:
I can testify that in 30 years of involvement in Christiantiy, I have never found any group of people who were more commited to the living Christ, and never found such liberty of the Spirit, never such appreciation for the Bible, never such an experienctial knowlege of the Bible and its revelation, never such regard for the authority for the written Word, and never such a conciousness of reality among the believers.

The church life is demanding, It demands that all the members maintain a close walk with Jesus Christ, daily fellowship with Him in His Word, participation in the meetings -

And this requires the Cross, to deal with our Self life and it requires the ressurection Life of the resurrected Christ, in more than just doctrinal knowlege but in reality.



This is a typical talk that promotes the elitism of this sect, like if they were the only ones to experience a true individual and corporate life in Christ.

You should take into consideration the many churches that are a real testimony to Christ, and which don't have anything to do with Lee.

Elitism, sectarianism and exclusivism are typical features of a movement like the "Local Church". I know of quite a few local fellowships in different countries that were and are a true work of the Spirit, where Christ is present, and where He is doing a tremendous work.

Please read Church History - and look around you!

Manfred

 2006/4/4 18:13Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Elitism, sectarianism and exclusivism are typical features of a movement like the "Local Church". I know of quite a few local fellowships in different countries that were and are a true work of the Spirit, where Christ is present, and where He is doing a tremendous work.



I have been envolved with many works in my 30 years as a Christian. And I have found the Lord working among many saints.

I attended a bible school (evangelical Institute of Greenville, SC, headed up by Joe Carroll, a missionary to missionaries in the far east, a spiritul life teacher and one who spoke frequently at the Keswick convention.

And I can testify to the Lord's presence and the Spirit's witness to Christ in these ministries and to the benifit I gained from my assotiation with them.

But, when you come to the word of God, and to the revelelation in the bible as to God's eternal purpose and what He is ultimately after today in the church age, there is nothing to compare with the reality and revelation which brother Watchman Nee saw, what He taught, and what the Lord Himself did through Him in recovering the reality of the church life, the inner life, and the practicality of the oneness of the body of Christ.

THe Question ultimately comes down to the revelation in the bible, God's eternal purpose and what God Himself wants and is satisfied with according to this revelation.

It is not a matter of this or that man but the Word of God. IT is a matter of God's hearts desire and what Christ died to obtain.

What is it? What does the bible reveal as the whole intent of Christ's incarnation, human living, crucifixion, and resurrection?

And a carful study of the bible reveals God's intent is to produce and build up His body, as His expression, containing His Life and manifesting Himself.

What it boils down to, is Watchman Nee saw in the bible, through the Spirit's enlightenment, the reality of the body of Christ, the eternal purpose of God, and the oneness of the body of Christ and he gave himself to the Lord for the accomplishment of His purpose.

And brother Lee, in contrast to brother Sparks, was commited to this vision. He saw it, he stood on it, and he refused to cave to long standing tradition and would not yield on this point.

Lee, like Paul said to Felix, "I was not disobediant to the hevenly vision." He saw what brother Nee saw and would not budge on this point. And as a result, there was a split between he and Sparks likex Paul and Barnabus. But as one can observe from the scriptures, bartnabus was never spoken of again.

As a result, today, if you study the fruit of each one's ministry (as the scripture says, considering the outcome of a man's way of life, imitate his faith) what is the fruit of each man's life.

I don't know about T. Austin Sparks, but today in every continant, there are over 3000 local churches and millions of believers who are enjoying Christ as a result of the faithfulness of one man, brother Lee, who would not budge, whould not yeild, and would not cave to tradition but remained faithful to the revelalion and vision of brother Watchman Nee which is in reality the vision of the New Testament conserning Christ and the church.

Graftedbranch



 2006/4/11 22:50Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This is a typical talk that promotes the elitism of this sect, like if they were the only ones to experience a true individual and corporate life in Christ.



All Christian believers are in fact "elitist" by the world's definition. We, as believers hold in no uncertian terms that Jesus Christ alone, Jesus Christ Himeself is the "way, the truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him."

We are all by one definition "elitist" and believe that Christ is the only way, and that all religions no matter how high or moral or whatever, are nothing and the Christ is everyting.

And among today's Christianity, we all must admit that when we come to the Bible and the revelition of Christ, the reality of the church and the reality of the Christian life, that what we find today that the rank and file of Christianity has little to do with what we find in the Scriptures.

This is the testimony of all those who preach even on this web sight such as Ravenhill, Tozer, and all the "revivalist". They are "revivalist" because they see in no uncertian terms the great and abismal need for "revival" among christians.

If the Status Quo were acceptable as far as spiritual life were conserned, then these men would be irrelavent. Their preaching, teaching, and burdon would be non acceptable.

But the fact is, that modern Christianity is degraded, is held down, is lacking in reality, In the true manifestation of Christ as seen in the New Testament.

But woe to those who press forward into the holy of holies, Woe to them who claim to have obtained something of christ and the reality of New Testament Christiantiy. They are elitist. They are proud, they are arrogant and cosider themselves above the rest.

But the call of Christ in Revelation is to those who would overcome degraded Christianity. The call is to overcome. Overcome what? The degradation of the church and all the things which have come in to displace Christ.

And in every case, those who cleave to the degraded system will accuse those who come out, to those who come to Christ "outside the camp" as elitist, as cultist, as those who think themselves above.

But Christ is above and ascended and in union with Him in HIs resurrected Life, the overcommers come out of degraded Christianity and enjoy the reality of Christ. And care not for labels or for those who would rail agaist them.

the status quo is to sit around and lament that, yes, things are really not as they should be. But oh well, this is just what it is and we dare not go against it.

But woe to them who come out, who seek for more. Who are not satisfied with the status quo. Who humger for reality, who humger for the living Christ and to be His living expression, who want to overcome the traditional system ans who want to be to Christ what He desires.

And expecially woe to those who claim to have found something of Christ outside the camp. They are elitiest, they belive they have something others don't. Well, do they? Do they have something of Christ others don't?


Graftedbranch

 2006/4/11 23:10Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
But, when you come to the word of God, and to the revelelation in the bible as to God's eternal purpose and what He is ultimately after today in the church age, [u]there is nothing to compare[/u] with the reality and revelation which brother Watchman Nee saw, what He taught, and what the Lord Himself did through Him in recovering the reality of the church life, the inner life, and the practicality of the oneness of the body of Christ.



Quote:
[u]It is not a matter of this or that man[/u] but the Word of God. IT is a matter of God's hearts desire and what Christ died to obtain.



Quote:
And brother Lee, [u]in contrast[/u] to brother Sparks, was commited to this vision. He saw it, he stood on it, and he refused to cave to long standing tradition and would not yield on this point.



Quote:
As a result, today, if you study the fruit of each one's ministry (as the scripture says, considering the outcome of a man's way of life, imitate his faith) what is the fruit of each man's life.


Maybe this all should go under the "Fruit Inspection" thread. There is a lot of contradictions here GB.
Quote:
I don't know about T. Austin Sparks, but today in every continant, there are over 3000 local churches and millions of believers who are enjoying Christ as a result of the faithfulness of one man, brother Lee, who would not budge, whould not yeild, and would not cave to tradition but remained faithful to the revelalion and vision of brother Watchman Nee which is in reality the vision of the New Testament conserning Christ and the church.



That proves exactely nothing.
Quote:
[u]It is not a matter of this or that man[/u] but the Word of God. IT is a matter of God's hearts desire and what Christ died to obtain.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/4/12 0:29Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re:

Quote:
But, when you come to the word of God, and to the revelelation in the bible as to God's eternal purpose and what He is ultimately after today in the church age, [u]there is nothing to compare with the reality and revelation which brother Watchman Nee saw[/u], what He taught, and what the Lord Himself did through Him in recovering the reality of the church life, the inner life, and the practicality of the oneness of the body of Christ.



The main problem with your post is that you refer to men all the time, as though W. Nee and W. Lee were the only valid ministers of the Gospel. Only the Lee sect speaks this way, we already all know about Lee being "the apostle of the age", etc. It is not something by which we are going to be deceived.

Quote:
And brother Lee, in contrast to brother Sparks, was commited to this vision. He saw it, he stood on it, and he refused to cave to long standing tradition and would not yield on this point.



Amazing! According to you TAS has to be brushed aside because he was not commited to this vision.
But to what vision are you reffering to? That man is becoming God and all the trash taught by Lee? If this is the "vision" you're talking about, it is but the vision of deception.

Quote:
Lee, like Paul said to Felix, "I was not disobediant to the hevenly vision." He saw what brother Nee saw and would not budge on this point. And as a result, there was a split between he and Sparks likex Paul and Barnabus. But as one can observe from the scriptures, bartnabus was never spoken of again.



Well, I am ready to say that TAS is more well know among believers today than is Lee; even though this is not a criteria. The fact is that whenever Lee is spoken of it is always in a negative way, I don't want to start listing the many heresies of the Lee sect, one has just to go on the Bereans site I gave earlier on to find out.

Quote:
I don't know about T. Austin Sparks, but today in every continant, there are over 3000 local churches and millions of believers who are enjoying Christ as a result of the faithfulness [u]of one man, brother Lee(/u], who would not budge, whould not yeild, and would not cave to tradition but remained faithful to the revelalion and vision of brother Watchman Nee which is in reality the vision of the New Testament conserning Christ and the church.



This is precisely the problem here: it is the work of one man. It is confirmed here by one of the member of this sect.

I don't think that this talk is very edifying, and therefore this might be my last post on this subject. I think that everyone can discern, with the help of the Spirit, what is of God and what is of Satan.

Manfred

 2006/4/12 16:29Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
But to what vision are you reffering to? That man is becoming God and all the trash taught by Lee? If this is the "vision" you're talking about, it is but the vision of deception.



What some consider trash is the heart and core of the Divine Revelation. That is that God became man to make man the same as He is in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.

And He does this first by redeeming man and then by imparting Himself into man as his Life, and constituting the man with the living Christ.

As John says in 1 John, "what we shall be has not yet been manifested, but when He appears, we shall be like HIm because we shall see Him as He is".

And as Paul in 11 Cor. 3 says. "We all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit.

It is the Bible which teaches this. This is not some weired and off beat "revelation" but rather the testimony of the scriptures and a dearly held doctrine of the early church fathers.

From Genesis to Revelation God's intent and purpose to work Himself into man as his Life and nature can be seen in picture, example, type, and figure as well as explicitly revealed and taught in the New Testament. It is seen in Genesis whenb God created man in His image and likeness and placed him before the Tree of Life that he would eat of it and recieve God's eternal Life. God intended man to live by Him as his indwelling Life.

God united Himself with man forever in Christ's incarnation and today as the head of the body, Christ as the Head imparts His Life into His members, regenerating them, sanctifying them, transforming them, conforming them to His gloriouse image and ultimatley will transfigure their mortal bodies to be just like HIm.

And as the type of Eve who was taken out of Adam and formed of His substance, so also the Church is taken out of Christ and formed and built of His substance to be His eternal counterpart, His eternal mate, His Wife fully renewed, fully transformed, and fully conformed to His image.

IN the end, the New Jerusalem, the Wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:11) will be the corporate Bride of christ, the dwelling place of God, the tabernacle of God, and God will be it's temple.

This is the beginning of the Bible, the content of the bible and the end of the Bible and everything in between is toward this purpose. Christ's comming, Christ's redemption, Christ's resurrection, and Christ's imparting Himself into His believers is for no other goal, no other purpose than God's building, Gods dwelling, God's corporate expression in His redeemed trapartite man to express Him eternally in the New Earth under the New Heavens.

This is the content of the Bible.

Graftedbranch



 2006/4/12 21:12Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: Speaking the truth in love.

Hello dear saints

I may say that although I do not agree with all of Witness Lee’s teachings I certainly would never put him under the category of “Satanist”. Remember dear saints, judgment is of the Lord. In teaching the ruling principle is “speaking the truth in love”:

“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” Romans 14:4-10

Consider carefully the issues raised here and the manner in which they were addressed. I could see the points made by everyone and if I had to make a decision based on this discussion alone I would have to side with “Graftedbranch” simply because he has been least abrasive in his manner of addressing others. In my opinion it was never his intension to discuss Witness Lee as a person, but when attacks are made on servant of God whose teachings have been helpful in your walk with God, then the natural response is to say something in defense of him. In reality this thread is about unity in the church not about Witness Lee. If we could discus the issue of at hand then speak of Lee and his doctrines in separate thread we may avoid tension and misunderstanding.

I have heard a lot of opinions in opposition to this teaching but I have heard very little word to back it from this thread. Consider the issue of examining the fruits of a teaching. We could take this to mean examine the teacher of examine those who he has taught. Personally I believe in both. Now if you are to say to me that you follow the way of Christ, the way of love how am I to receive this if the ministry of your words is not in patience, or in kindness or if is rude and easily angered. I do not mind admitting being wrong but if one says to me that what I saying is “nonsense” or “the doctrine of devils” I am offended because it is an attack in my character and on my ability to discern truth. I feel offended and grieved for Graftedbranch.

Now I ask in all honesty if the intension is of correction was this correction administered in love? I personally do not feel very strongly about this issue so I am not saying one party is doctrinally right or wrong but in terms of attitude.

May God in His grace bless us with fruit of the Spirit in meekness, esteeming others better than ourselves.

Gabriel.


_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2006/4/13 8:58Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy