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Conqueror
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re:

I understand your concerns. A quick google on Bickle will bring up a few different sites that warn against the "Kansas City Prophets".

The two biggest things against them is the following:

1)There have been a couple times where a prophetic word was spoken and it was wrong.

2) One of the main leaders became a homosexual.

My commments..

1) I think that with any type of spiritual gift human error can become involved. I believe that sometimes spiritual pride can take place and a person can use his own "reasonings" and decide that those reasonings are a word from God. Men are falliable. Also, I don't believe Bickle is involved in this type of prophecy. The prophecy spoken at IHOP is on the personal level and is more inline with the type of prophecy that is mentioned in 2 Corinthians.

2) This man is no longer associated with IHOP. Just because he became a homosexual late in life does not mean that the Lord did not use him for a period of time. You only need to read the record of the Kings of Israel to see that happens."For the first 20 years so and so did what is right in the sight of the Lord and he was blessed, but for the next 20 years he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord".

I have found that most detractors of Bickle flat out deny the more "charistmatic" of the giftings.

However, Bickle teaches that...

Jesus is God
He came to the earth in the form of a man
He died for our sins
He rose again
He is coming again

he teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven, he teaches the free gift of grace by faith and not works and that the faith is itself a gift from God. He teaches discipleship and the spiritual disciplines.

The Bible says that a man cannot honestly say "Jesus is Lord" without having the Holy Spirit within him.

I belong to a conservative southern baptist church and while I am not used to some of the things that occur there, I don't doubt the doctrine.

I would encourage you to be a Berean and check for yourself. I hope you don't base your opinion on a cursory glance at Bickle's website or the websites of his own detractors. Pick up a couple of his books. I recommend "Passion for Jesus" and "After God's Own Heart: Becoming a David Generation". Both books deal with cultivating a passionate love for Jesus that extends out to other people.

 2006/1/11 10:51Profile









 Re:

Conquerer...

Thank you for your reply. Please understand I am not standing in judgement of Mike's salvation. Thats not my place. Please notice I said I had issues with his theology... not his standing with the Lord. Thats between he and God.

I also appreciate your encouraging me to be a Berean concerning this. You and I have not conversed much, but the long and the short of it is that I was once very involved in the WOF movement, and also the Latter Rain movement. I am very familiar with IHOP and Morning Star... Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones (not of BJU fame), etc etc. Read their books at one time, seen them preach.

And I now reject the majority of their teachings concerning prophecy.

Yes, they are correct on their theology concerning salvation. But not much beyond that.

I believe that God can issue a prophetic message thru men today, however I do not believe in the way it is used by these men. You state [i]There have been a couple times where a prophetic word was spoken and it was wrong.[/i] "A couple of times" is a large understatement.

As for sexual misconduct, Paul Cain is not the only person in that group that was exposed. Bob Jones (not of BJU fame) was also exposed for sexual misconduct in the 1990's. He would have women strip naked in his office alone with him so he could prophesy over them as they "stood naked before the Lord". Yet, he has been "restored" and is now actively associated with Morning Star Ministries (Rick Joyner's outfit). In OT times he would have been stoned for being a false prophet and for blasphemy.

(In case anyone is wondering, I had found articles on the internet concerning the Bob Jones misconduct, and confirmed the articles with the reporter for the newspaper in KC who wrote the articles.)

I've met Rick Joyner. I've met Bob Jones. The church I attended for awhile was associated with Morning Star Ministries.

This was before I stopped listening to teachers who tickled my ears, and stopped reading all of their books ABOUT the Word of God... and actually began to READ the Word of God, and study to show myself approved. My whole entire theology changed.

I think my prior experience with these folks, and my understanding of what they teach qualifies me to be able to speak about it.

I just wanted to explain where I am at with all of this because I know there are a number of new people here who do not know much about me.

But as far as IHOP, KC-Prophets and Morning Star... I reject the majority of their teachings. I reject the "Manifest Sons of God" doctrine especially. I think these men are dangerous false teachers and prophets. [b]BUT[/b] I refuse to stand in judgement over their salvation.

Krispy

 2006/1/11 11:39
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Krispy Kritter...

I am in agreement with you one hundred percent. I have been involved with these people and have come similiar experinces.

1. Paul Cain is a false prophet

2. Rick Joyner is false as well

3. Bob Jones is a false prophet


As for Bickle and the rest of the House of Prayer people like Lou Engle, who is vehemently opposing abortion which I like, and some others all around the the USA. Because for those of you that don't know this movement is spreading very qucikly. They have houses of prayer everyhwere in the United States and even Cananda now. I can't speak too much about them because they have holy lives as far as I see, and they stick close to prayer and fasting, and the word of God.

But for some reason these men Bickle and others take alot of advice from these false prophets. I don't know why, I sympathize with it because I have been involved in a relationship with another person who claimed to be prophetess but alot of weird stuff came out of her. Her husband was completely mesmerized by her supposed prophetic abilities, and for a while, I must admit I was too, until I realized the manipulation of it and broke away. So I hope that the fall of these men will eventually allow Bickle and others to escape from under their falseness.

I believe like many others in the Body Of Christ that this prayer movement started really well but fell off somewhere. I think as soon as Paul Cain and Bob Jones got involved. Somewhere around there.


It is hard to discern and it took me a while to come to this conclusion. I would recommend to listen to the 12 tape series called prophetic history of Kansas City House of Prayer. With this series you will have a better understanding where Mike is coming from as well as the House of Prayer movement.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2006/1/11 12:15Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"But for some reason these men Bickle and others take alot of advice from these false prophets. I don't know why..."

If you figure that out, perhaps you'll come to more understanding of these things.

Isn't it interesting that some of these men you speak of- such as Bickle and Engle, who you know have lived lives of prayer and, I am confident at least in Bickle's case, have diligently studied the Scriptures- have come to different conclusions?

Don't you think they know of all the same issues that have come out in the public, and much much more, and yet they still believe what they do about prophets and the things of God. So they must understand the Scriptures and the things of God differently. I wonder how they see things. Don't you?

 2006/1/11 13:17Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Very true...


_________________
Giancarlo

 2006/1/11 13:47Profile
Conqueror
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re:

Krispy -

(interesting name btw - grin)

I completely understand. Honestly, my knowledge about these men is very very limited so I can't speak too much about them.

I can a bit more about Bickle. Mainly because I have had the chance to thoroughly study his material. Also, when doing a search on Bickle you will find that you really can't find anything negative about him. Anything negative you find about him is really directed towards Paul Cain, Bob Jones, etc. Looking over IHOP's website you don't even find a mention of these guys or their "ministries".

I am doing something a little different this year....I guess you can call it a New Years resolution... I am devoting this whole next year to reading exclusively my Bible and not secondary teachers. Its going to be a little difficult for me.. I love to read and my shelves are filled with works by Lewis, Tozer, Willard, Ravenhill and the other "greats". I love them dearly. However, this year I am determined to gain wisdom and knowledge direct from the "Source". After the year is up I am going to read other resources...and I am very interested in what I am going to find....

 2006/1/11 13:56Profile









 Re:

It's called deception. I marvel that Catholics can read the book of Romans and still come away believing what they believe about salvation.

Thats why I said Bickle appears to be a very sincere man... but at the same time, he is very deceived.

What they believe is [b]not[/b] orthodox Christian doctrine.

Krispy

 2006/1/11 14:06
habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
I am doing something a little different this year....I guess you can call it a New Years resolution... I am devoting this whole next year to reading exclusively my Bible and not secondary teachers. Its going to be a little difficult for me..

Praise God. I'm not mature enough yet in my walk for this but I pray it happens. Here's a quote from John Wesley about six years before his conversion "In the year 1729, I began not only to read, but to study, the Bible, as the one, the only standard of truth, and the only model of pure religion."

I've read a bit about the KC prophets but my knowledge is very limited. Sorry I deviated off-topic...


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/1/11 14:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I am doing something a little different this year....I guess you can call it a New Years resolution... I am devoting this whole next year to reading exclusively my Bible and not secondary teachers. Its going to be a little difficult for me.. I love to read and my shelves are filled with works by Lewis, Tozer, Willard, Ravenhill and the other "greats". I love them dearly. However, this year I am determined to gain wisdom and knowledge direct from the "Source". After the year is up I am going to read other resources...and I am very interested in what I am going to find....



You know what brother... thats exactly what I did! More believers need to do that. In these last days a believer who even opens their Bible on days other than Sunday are a rare commodity.

You cant go wrong with the Word.

Krispy

 2006/1/11 14:09
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: IHOP

Quote:
I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with Mike Bickle's International House of Prayer ministry? Maybe some experiences with their events, training and internship programs, or perhaps you've attended one of their conferences?

Hi Ron
experience with? no.
knowledge of ? some...

The IHOP seems to be part of a network of similar minded groups (they have "co-hosted" some large events in the UK) and seems to have roots which tap into the Kansas City Prophets and that whole line of teaching. They seem to teach along the lines of the Manifested Sons of God/Latter Rain folk who believe that God is going to raise a generation of super-saints with super-elders, super-prophets etc. This is will the forerunner of worldwide domination by 'the church'. This kind of doctrine where new 'moves' are seen as part of an eschatological programme have been discussed here before. I will not go into them again.

I am sure it is Art Katz' largeness of heart which gave him freedom to speak at their convention/conference rather than any spiritual affinity. The dilema is always that when high-profile preachers attend these things they inevitably make them more credible. I presume that each man will need to balance his sense of how useful he can be to the saints involved in the movement with the danger of making such movements more acceptable to others as a result.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/1/13 4:21Profile





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