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 Re: My friend believes in "Generational curse and sins."

Quote:
For the redeemed, there shouldn't be any curse on them any longer.

Gary,

I completely agree with the theory of your statement but, the reality for some people is that they are not delivered from some things, just because of coming to Christ. It could be argued that if the newborn babe in Christ's theology was up to the job, they could work it out for themselves but, most people who respond to the message preached, receive what they believed into, only. If there should have been or had been, more proclaimed, they would have believed into that. This is one aspect.

Another aspect is whether the person believes they should have victory over sin because of believing. From many posts here at SI, there is a belief going around, that this is a bit of a hit or a miss. There is confusion about 'what is faith', and 'doing the will of the Father'. In other words, Christians may well continue in sin, until they start hungering for a closer walk with God. It is then that they honestly begin to face the inner truths about themselves, which have always been there, unchalleneged. I think it's here that the battle really begins, and strongholds start to be pulled down with a will. It is also here that genuine spiritually intransigent situations are identified.

I would say this, now that I've battled with mine.... there is a sense in which it is no big deal after one is delivered, but, before the release?.... it is HUGE.... On the thread's main topic, I have not read widely, but, Leanne Payne's exposition is excellent, spiritual, workable and comaptible with experiencial truth as it is defined in scripture.

EDIT: If the curse is 'the Law', rather than what God said to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, then may it be that some people, who were never under the Law, do bring unidentified spiritual bondage with them, which requires [i]their[/i] understanding and co-operation before it can be dealt with effectively - yes, by the power of the Blood of the Lamb - but not automatically? In so saying, I'm looking for explanations which fit both scripture and the experience of many people who find release subsequent (by years) to commitment.

 2006/1/8 7:25









 Re: My friend believes in "Generational curse and sins."

Quote:
Scripture for this?

Mike,

If I was sitting with a homosexual, I could explain to them how scripture shows clearly, that it is a function of idolatry (Exo 20, Lev 18, Deu 4:16, Daniel 11:37, Rom 1, 1 Cor 10:20, 21) and there are many scriptures against idolatry specifically.

The practising of idolatry, is what opens a person to receive an evil spirit, even if they had not been molested in such a way as to render them spiritually vulnerable, previously; note how many people brought a son or a daughter to Jesus's attention, to be delivered from a spirit, though not only children can need deliverance.

In Acts 16, the spirit of divination caused the damsel to call out. That was the physical manifestation of her possession. The scripture defines other forms of physical manifestation - deafness, dumbness, throwing to the ground, crying out, throwing into fire or water, cutting with stones, living in the tombs, (I'll let you think of more) which indicate aspects of the [i]power[/i] of an indwelling spirit, to control a certain aspect of the person's body. In the story of Legion, it is undeniable that his mind had been affected - I would say, his brain.... he has so little control over the spirits, that he could not resist either mentally, or physically, their tormenting thoughts and provokations to take action against his own body.

In 1 Cor 6:18, Paul exhorts to 'Flee fornication'. This suggests the born again believer has the power to resist and overcome the temptation to this normal heterosexual instinct. Paul says it is a sin against the believer's own body, to practise fornication.

Mark 5:15
And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, [b]sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind[/b]: and they were afraid.

'Sitting, clothed and in his right mind'. Here is the proof that deliverance from demons leads to a change in behaviour and thinking.

Your quote was my clarification of Karl's suggestion that there is a 'spirit of homosexuality' - at least, that's what he meant - which could be transferred from a man to a woman. This is a misapprehension of the spiritual aspects of the oppression/provokation which results in homosexual acts. I sought the Lord for understanding of these matters over many years and now, I'd say there are various ways a person may end up practising sodomy. True, Jesus has the power to deliver from every one of them, and perhaps my statement was oversimplistic and bland. However, it was rooted in revelation from scripture and my own deliverance.

 2006/1/8 7:59









 Re:


Sorry I posted this in the wrong place, my apology was not with mike, I'll get my bearings straight.

LS

 2006/1/8 11:30
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Timely that both of you are up here.

The confusion that can be made amongst ourselves...

Not in disagreement whatsoever in the general sense of things. What I was alluding to maybe could be couched in the more modern parlance; "The spirit (or demon) [i]of____[/i]" This is what I was drawing attention to. "A feminine spirit", "the demon of alcohol", "the demon of bitterness", still waiting to hear where the "demon of blaming" is ... Sorry, don't mean to be otherwise flippant. But are these things not mere speculations? This naming of spirits and demons? Is it OK to just do these things without scriptural backing?

There are ramifications here, what of the whole "spiritual mapping" business? Scriptural? Or speculative? The 'deliverance' ministries (not a wholesale indictment) how much is 'created' by suggestion rather than fact, truth? There is something rather dangerous in doing this and it lends to a rather spurious mindset. Recalling the whole exorcist phenomenon, or the 'regression' type things that is alluding me at the moment... What about the Salem Witch Trials?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/8 11:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In regards to the question asked specifically to someone else, this is absurd and dangerous. The question doesn't pertain to something in that manner, it is in going beyond scripture. Which is why we have a plethora of these type's of things in our midst.



Hey Mike, I agree with you, not everything is a demon, some are downright dirty habits that one can lick on thier own with the LORD's help of course.

Now I believe in this stuff, the casting out of devils, and I laugh at people who think that everything that goes wrong in their lives is a devil.

Jesus rebuked a deaf spirit, so we can learn from this that perhaps other organs in the body that are not working properly can be attributed to a spirit. I said "can be" not that they are. In another place it talks about those with a lying spirit.

Those who work in this department of casting out devils will have or else someone under their ministry will have the gift called discernment, otherwise it's a hit and miss situation, hence, without ME you can do nothing-Jesus.

LS

 2006/1/8 12:02
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Just the terminology that goes beyond and bringing in the other side of the equation. What I think I was referring to as example was the rise of 'satanism' there a few years back, when we had all kinds of 'convincing' proofs of things that could only be brought forth by certain ministers, it was eerily similar in style to the Salem Witch Trails, though without the killings. Now it comes to me; SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) Here's an old article on it;

http://www.answers.org/satan/sralit.html


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/8 12:18Profile









 Re: My friend believes in "Generational curse and sins."

Quote:
Timely that both of you are up here.

The confusion that can be made amongst ourselves...

Not in disagreement whatsoever in the general sense of things. What I was alluding to maybe could be couched in the more modern parlance; "The spirit (or demon) of____" This is what I was drawing attention to. "A feminine spirit", ...

Mike,

I know you've raised this question in other threads, and I realise you're trying to address the over-spiritualisation of difficulties that some people may face and the ignorant and loose use of unhelpful language, by those who are not mature in the faith, or, who have never had to help someone who is in bondage to a spirit. (As LS said, discernment is needed..... this is a spiritual gift, which some people seem to receive early in their walk with God, and to others it comes more lately, as part of the multiplication of their gifts, as they exercise that which they first received - in my case, 'faith'.)

It's fair enough to ask these things, and just for those reading, I will say you know more of my testimony than many here, so I don't mind being questioned publicly in a [i]general[/i] way. But, when it comes to the nitty gritty of dealing with an individual who is struggling with a bondage which destroys their every waking hour, the issues are not terminology. It might be the very last thing I would say to someone I was about to pray with..... 'you have a spirit of such and such'. But, the person does need to know what we are asking God to deliver them from. This requires, quite simply, the use of nouns - names - descriptions.... otherwise, the prayer is so vague as to give the enemy endless room for manoeuvre, and God might not know what the request is. Remember how Jesus asked people what they wanted, even when we would say it was obvious that a leper would want his leprosy cleansed, or, a blind person would want to see. It's the same principle, that's all.

As I proceeded in prayer over my own needs, I had to be able to label them, so I could confess specific things to God, and ask Him to break their power over me.... which I believed He did immediately I asked..... then I had to experience the outworking of that release .... and this is where it can be seen that [i]information[/i] for the believer is essential - else how can a person resist familiar thoughts and urges, if they have not been separated out into a recognisable construct?

On this basis, I would try to help a person see how things they were struggling with, might be [i]linked[/i]. One of the things about bondage is that it also blinds the understanding and things seem disjointed from the inside (of one's head), although, to the observer, they are manifestly connected.

I hope this helps to explain why I wrote as I did. If you think about the dynamics of homosexuality, there has to be a feminisation of the male, or a masculinisation of the female.... of course, this is why it feels so natural to them - the bondage is one of the deepest spiritual affects which can distress a body, seated right beside where the Spirit interacts with the spirit of a person. And this is why homosexuality is physically (and emotionally) destructive, because it is the ultimate reversal.... in which the natural use of the body (which was made male or female, [u]in God's image[/u]) is utterly defiled. This is Satan's big success, and why I deliberately quoted that verse from Daniel 11, in which it says

37 Neither shall [b]he[/b] regard the God of his fathers, [b]nor the [u]desire[/u] of women[/b], nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Here is, clearly, a link between homosexual status and the complete rejection of God Himself. Young's Literal refers to him as 'the Lawless One'.

 2006/1/8 12:39









 Re: Great Stuff keep it coming!


Your talking to me Dorcas, keep up with the great posts Sister.

LS

 2006/1/8 13:28
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Just read through that linked article in it's entirety and it really is a good application, even to this discussion.

Still disagree with the usage of 'terming' spirits and demons where there is no scriptural warrant to do so, this reasoning sounds like pragmatism and am only addressing this without bringing in all the extra examples and side issues. The reason being is that there is a whole lot of people reading these things and it is not to be overly dogmatic about it but unfortunately this is not predominantly an age of being a good Berean and as that article well points out we need to be testing ourselves and our belief's.

Maybe will go ahead with some musings from earlier this morning, it's only odd in the similarities, perhaps it's just a case of "where my head is at", not that it's of any grand importance, just opinion ...

One last thing to throw a big wrench in all this. Praying a couple of hours ago, dozed off (sound familiar?!) and had a most incredible dream. And as a preface haven't given this person a thought in a very long time. It was one of those where you actually 'feel' things, it's a bit difficult to unravel it all here, but pertained to an old girlfriend, nothing sinful but the cleverness of it all was something I had wanted to do a long time ago, apologize to her parents as she would get a lot of grief because of her personality. In reality, I was the one to blame and was strung out on drugs in those days. It was very 'up to date' as I expressed everything including what the Lord had done, my chagrin with a lot of what passes for Christianity in our day... Quite vivid and full of truth even the realization that I am a married man, quite a bit more, some real heart tugging matters. When I awoke it was deeply troubling on a number of levels. Why? What does it mean? Does it mean anything? Frankly, what I would be more inclined to believe is that it was a very clever and subtle attack. It was full of love and good things, forgiveness (forgot to mention that, I had asked for forgiveness in the dream) truth, honesty, what more could one ask for? Except this, what was left of it to the natural and that being a temptation, a certain 'wishfulness' [i]implied[/i] due to present circumstances. What evidence do I have other than a subjective reasoning? Well, only that this is not the first time that these sort of things have happened while praying (that is neither here nor there) but it does lend credence to what was said in 2Co 11:14,15 [i]And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[/i]

But again, would I want to put a label on it?

Jer 23:28 [i]The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.[/i]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/1/8 13:40Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


{Quote} GaryE

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

For the redeemed, there shouldn't be any curse on them any longer. The curse has been removed from the believer. Though we may have a family that has a history of certain sins, when we are paid for by the blood, there is no curse. We don't have to be entangled again in a yoke of bondage. We are free and paid for by our nearest kin {Christ}. The taskmasters are no longer over us. We have left Egypt and followed Christ. Old things are passed away. etc.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Sister Dorcas,

Yes, I totally agree that many people who are Christians are still in need of deliverance.

For someone to be delivered, they must know that Christ has set, is setting, and wants to set them free of bondage. This is not just knowing the above quoted truths with the mind, it is a heart thing. It is important to have the revelation that they are free. It becomes established within them that they are free to the place where they speak it. I’m not saying that to speak it makes them free, but when a person is delivered he or she is able to state it as fact because it is established in their heart to be fact. In truth they can say; I’m free. There is no doubt when they say this.

The above verse, Gal. 3:13 is a fact. When the person has received this fact in their heart not their heads, they are free. There is no generational curse on any person who has the truth of this fact established in their heart.

In Christ,
GaryE

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

What is really needed today are true operations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that people can hear the truth of the Word and know they are free.


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2006/1/8 16:24Profile





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