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jouko
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Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

"So He has elected some to whom he gives the gift of faith and those people always respond by coming to Him in repentance and obedience."

Hello nobody.

How would you explain these verses to me ?

Joh 3:14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 4:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
¨
Luk 2:10 And the angel said to them, Do not fear. For behold, I give to you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Did I read anger in your comment or was it of the righteous sort ? With blessings.
Another nobody.


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Jouko Hakola

 2003/12/13 19:45Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi nobody,

Quote:
John 6 clearly teaches that all the Father has given to the Son will come to Him and none can come to Him that the Father doesn't draw.



I have three questions. At what point does the Father hand over man to the Son?

Two, How do you know if you are in the hands of the Son?

Is it based on man telling another to pray the sinners prayer. (Which isn't Biblical) Is it the will of man? What does your theology teach?

Three, was Adam in the hand of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? If so, why did he fall?

in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/14 1:18Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

John 3:16 simply says that believers will get everlasting life. These believers are obviously the elect.

It is true that God does not will for any man to perish in the way that he has "predestined him to Hell." He simply elects those he will save and somehow the rest are allowed to run toward their own damnation - their own fault. I don't pretend to say that this is "fair" as we judge it or easy, but it sure seems scriptural.

As far as when the Father gives the elect to the Son - let me say this much. When people responded to Jesus did He say that their response set into motion their election or vice versa? He said you believe not because you aren't mine and you believe because it has been shown to you. Clearly He teaches that what we do is the result of God than God responding to our initiation. If we initiate then why pray for the lost?

To be assured of your election you ask yourself if you are hungering and thirsting for righteousness and Scripture. This is given by God and didn't come from yourself. Are you chastened by God? Do you strive to enter the narrow gate? This was given to you, it did not originate in your natural self. It isn't that you are compelled to things involuntarily but that you desire them at all is a gift of God. The cross is foolishness to the perishing, right? Yet we find ourselves brought to it by God working in us.

As far as supralapsarian and infralapsarian views - that is getting too deep for me. All I can do is try to understand the basics. Adam was allowed to sin in God's permissive will even though it was God's preceptive will that would have him stay from the tree. This clears some of the trouble in thinking of God's will. He has a preceptive will that says "Thou shalt..", a permissive will that allows sin to occur, and a purposive will by which He does as He pleases. Whether it was God's purposive will at work is far beyond me.

I don't pretend to know a lot - I am new to this election idea as of 6 months ago. I started reading more Scripture and this really jumped out at me as something obviously in there that I have been taught against for years. I believe it strongly enough now that I've left a Church-Growth Movement church for a Reformed Church because I can't stand compromising the truth for a filled auditorium anymore. I'd rather be with a few who really seek the Truth and preach the unabridged word to others.

 2003/12/16 14:40Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

It's getting too deep for me too brother! :-o
Clutch :-D


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Howard McNeill

 2003/12/16 15:20Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Quote:
I believe it strongly enough now that I've left a church-growth movement church for a reformed church because I can't stand compromising the truth...



Amen Isn't it a wonderful gift. The word of God will free us from the works of men. I encourage you to always go to the word for understanding. Wait on the Lord, and don't take the shortcut of reading the doctrines of men. Always discern when someone tries to explain why the word does not really mean what it actually says. Do not add or subtract, just believe. The word of God lines up, it is the Holy Spirit that lines it up for you.

in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 16:41Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

nobody wrote,
John 3:16 simply says that believers will get everlasting life. These believers are obviously the elect.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The verse says "whosoever" and not "elect".
Obviously ?

Pet 3:9 any should....all should

1 Tim 4:10 preserver of all men

1 John 4:14 of the world

Rom 1:16 to everyone

Luke 2:10 to all people

Do all these verses also imply "elect" ?

When you found it 6 months ago, how did you find it ? Did somebody preach that or did you find it by yourself in the Bible ? No hidden agenda behind these questions just plain curiosity.
Amen to the no compromising, church growth movement etc..
With blessings.
Still nobody.


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Jouko Hakola

 2003/12/16 23:47Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

John 3:16 again:
whoever believes will have everlasting life

This statement defines the reward for those who believe. It says absolutely nothing whatsoever about who will/may/can believe or whether there are requirements, restrictions, or prerequisites on how one comes to believe. If I say that whoever comes to my place tonight gets a free meal it sounds like an invitation to all, but the fact is that you don't know where I live and therefore cannot partake of my meal with me. The free meal is offered to all, but in fact only those who I've revealed my address to can actually come. The fact here is that whosoever believeth will in fact only be those the Father draws.

Let me say again that God has not forced anyone to damnation. We have fallen on our own. God does not want to see any perish, but yet He will ultimately judge since He is too just and holy not to. Jesus said He prayed not for the world but for the elect. He said He laid down His life for His sheep.

What this belief of God being in control, building His church, and being the one who actually draws people to Christ has done for my life is immeasureable. Before I thought I was a rational agent (ever taken economics?) who was simply choosing God because I happened to know that it was in my best interests. If I spread the information well enough, others would act as rational agents and come to believe once they saw it was in their best interests. All free to do whatever we think is rational, right? Now I have found that this is not scriptural or seen in practice. The fact is that many people know about salvation but reject it for no apparent reason other than pure rebellion- knowing it leads to hell. The fact is that many who "decide" for Christ cannot actually let go of the world and submit to Him and remain unsaved- maybe even after thirty "rededications". We all also know that many people who seem to be the farthest from God and in no way close to "deciding" for Him suddenly have Apostle Paul-type conversions and quickly become strong believers. Doesn't seem like a people with enough grace and freewill to choose rationally to me. Seems like a warped and bent people who hate God from which a few are given a gift of being drawn to Him. Jesus said that those who practice sin are slaves to it, so where is this "freedom" that we have?

We are a bunch of drug-addicts hooked on the world. Some guy comes along and says "Hey, why don't you just choose to quit? You're free to make your own choices, right?" The drug addict says "I've decided to quit everyday for ten years and look how successful my freewill is against my bondage."

So now I understand that I'm not supposed to stand on my head or do circus tricks to get people's attention for a minute to present the Gospel. God is in control and I am told to simply show love and preach the Gospel. Many will reject it, but that isn't the fault of my inadequacies or lack of persuasive powers. I also have a deeper sense of gratitude that I was chosen rather than the chooser. I didn't pick God like he was a dessert at Bishop's Buffet. He chose me to be a part of His gift for the Son- a redeemed people to praise Him for eternity.


 2003/12/17 9:08Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi brother nobody,

I hear your thoughts. I believe only what God has chosen to reveal to me. Thus my thoughts are only the shadow of the true tabernacle. I say this to disqualify myself as an expert in the word.

The verse which Jesus says that no one can come to Me unless the Father draws him, is very similar in its' result to what Paul teaches in Romans 3. Man is lost and depraved. Unless the grace of God comes down and gives direction, man will never find their Savior.

Also in regards to election. Jesus says that many are called but few are chosen. Those who would believe are chosen to be given the fullness of Christ. "I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; THAT IN EVERY THING YE ARE ENRICHED BY HIM, IN ALL UTTERANCE, AND IN ALL KNOWLEGE. Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you; so that ye COME BEHIND IN NO GIFT; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' 1 Corinthians 4-7.

Yet Paul, says that he can not teach them about spiritual things because they are babes in Christ. Later in the second letter, Paul identifies as you have that the affections for this world is the yoke which prevents them from realizing the fullness of Christ. 2 Corinthians 6

In Love
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/17 11:18Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: BACK TO THE ROOT

Getting back to the original point of this thread, does anyone think that it changes the Calvin story in any way to think of him acting as a government office rather than as an individual? Obviously most of us would easily accept that people should not murder but that governments can execute criminals. Is it ridiculous for me say that Calvin may be given some leeway here as he was governing the city? I don't think that the way the Anabaptists were treated was right (and I obviously think they had a good point against Calvin on the baptism issue), but here comes a difficult question:

When a man is a leader in government and a Christian should every act of his office be held to the standards of a Christian individual? Can he not decieve his enemies in wartime? Must he accept a slap in the face and turn his cheek? I don't think so, but this is going to get deep quickly. Too deep for me.

I would say that he was ridiculously zealous in trying to achieve a moral society who would all accept his teachings. I don't think I can say that he murdered people, though.

Bring the storm of thoughts on this if you would, I'm curious to hear some different views!

 2003/12/18 14:24Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I have found that about 75% of the kings of Israel were judged wicked. I have found that God raised up Nebuchadnezzar to judge the wickedness of Israel. And God labeled the king and the babylonians as being a wicked people. It is said that God paid wages to the Babylonians for the hard work they had done for Him. And that He would pay them by giving them Egypt. So in James it says that, "for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." Calvin had the Scriptures. He obviously had the ability to study and write about them. Why didn't he see that his actions could not bring about the righteousness of God?

"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." Psalm 2:1-3

There is nothing new under the sun.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/18 17:19Profile





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