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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I understand your point crsschk.

However, I considered the work that God did through David, not having time to research as I said I needed to.

1 Samuel 25:39, "So when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said,"Blessed be the Lord, who has pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and has kept His servant from evil! For the Lord has returned the wickedness of Nabal on his own head."

Here the Lord executed His judgement supernaturally. We also learn that it was the Lord who kept David from evil. We also have the long story of King Saul and his efforts to kill David. What was his response to Saul, who David knew was anointed by God to be king? David waited on the Lord to bring about His solution.

Yet saying this I also found that I stumbled just like the systematic theologians do. Everytime man thinks he can systematically identify how God worked in this or that event, God shows us how foolish we really are. I believe Scripture teaches us that, "My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are above your thoughts." (Paraphrase).

I know that as we learn this lesson over and over again, that it only serves to point us to God. He reveals Himself as He chooses to do in each individual.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/9 11:37Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

JeffMarshalek said:

Quote:
I submit that the fruit of John Calvin faith are thorns and dead works that will be burned by the righteousness of our Almighty God!

This is a very strong statement, although I personally doubt it seriously. Nevertheless, John Calvin does not need anyone to vindicate him. We shall find out on the day of judgement.

Elsewhere, it was implied that my views regarding church history are humanistic and rationalistic (though no explanation was given). I plainly fail to see why (and I find it unusual, as more often than not, I am accused of the opposite!).


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Sam

 2003/12/9 15:56Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I am sorry for declaring judgement in my own name. But there is a hatred that exists in me. "I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies." Psalm 139:22. You see God declared to satan, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." Genesis 3:15. Those who follow Jesus, will like Jesus, begin to hate unrighteousness. Unlike Calvin, David prayed, "Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!"

In terms of humanism, I was quick to judge you. I am sorry. I specifically was refering to your praise for the writings of Calvin. Jesus corrected the rich young ruler, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is God..." Matthew 19:17
Man can only sow and water, it is God that gives the increase.

When one seeks to take the edge off of something that seems inappropriate by distance of time and culture, again this is a warning to me.

Please read my postings in the thread on predestination, and homosexuals in the church of England. To summarize in the briefest manner. The foundation on which 5 point calvinism stands is the doctrine of irresistible grace. Clearly focus on this point. Calvin teaches that we are saved by grace alone. The Scriptures teach that we are saved by grace through faith.

As iron sharpens iron


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/9 18:19Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

As I have mentioned before, Calvin's own teachings on predestination should probably not be fully identified with the extreme forms of "Calvinism" as we know it today. If John Calvin were alive today, he might be surprised how some of the later "Calvinists" have expanded on his ideas. Therefore, rejection of the so-called "Five-Point Calvinism" does not necessarily entails dismissal of John Calvin himself.

Your scripture-quoting is meaningless unless you have pre-judged John Calvin as God's enemy or even as the Devil himself. I tend to disagree with you--may God be the Judge.

I see no connection between humanism and the appreciation of a believer's writings, especially when I have no intention of exalting any human's writings over the revelation of God.

Quote:
When one seeks to take the edge off of something that seems inappropriate by distance of time and culture, again this is a warning to me.

Being aware of this distance is a basic hermeneutical rule in biblical and historical studies. Otherwise, we risk the danger of reading our own culture, thoughts, and ideals [i]into[/i] the texts that are foreign to the author and original readers--that's how cults twist the scriptures.


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Sam

 2003/12/10 11:04Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Agent 001

As you can see, I have shared the condition of my heart in this matter. I see your point in terms of Calvin's teachings being distorted by others over the ages. Please bare with me just one more time.

Does Calvin teach that grace is irresistilbe? I have not labored through his writings as thoroughly as I should.

Based on his writings how would Calvin address this Scripture, Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul clearly teaches that all men are born dead. We are enemies of God. Paul also teaches that when we commit our life to our Savior we are made alive by the Spirit of God. Are these two precepts correct as how I have communicated it. If so, then Paul is clearly teaching to those who are born again. Paul is also teaching that a believer, one who is born again, must make a choice. The believer is given the option to continue to follow the old man or to follow the Spirit. We become what we place our faith in.

Do you agree with this analysis?

If so, do the writings of Calvin teach that a born again man can because of the choice he makes die spiritually.

Is this what Paul is teaching?

Did Calvin address this verse in his teaching. Romans 5:10, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." The first thought, Paul teaches that we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son. The second thought, Paul teaches that, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." The second thought is what saves us from God's wrath. See verse 9. So salvation comes by living His life.

The just shall live by faith.

With this analysis are we saved by grace alone, or are we saved by grace through faith? Which doctrine does Calvin teach?

As iron sharpens iron
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/10 13:21Profile
revivaltheology
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Joined: 2003/4/8
Posts: 29


 Re:

Inevitably, David, Paul, and other biblical figures are lifted up as murderers who found grace.

A couple of things are important to note:

1. David and Paul repented of their sins of murder.

2. OT examples of God's people being commissioned to put the wicked Canaanites to death do not really speak to this issue, unless one assumes the Calvin was directly commanded by God to put Servetus and these others to death. Also, the [b]New[/b] Covenant standard is "love thine enemy."

Also, some seek to excuse Calvin's tyrannical rule of Geneva by "the times" in which Calvin lived. However, there were MANY peace-loving Anabaptists who did not resort to violence to advance the kingdom of God, and who were in turn put to death by both the Protestants and the Catholics of that day.

Calvin had the same gospels to read and obey as we do today. The only thing Servetus was convicted of was being against baptizing babies and against the traditional doctrine of the trinity. These things deserve being burned at the stake, under ANY supposedly Christian government?

 2003/12/12 0:23Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]On Romans 5:10 -[/b]

[i]"This is an explanation of the former verse, amplified by introducing a comparison between life and death. We were enemies, he says, when Christ interposed for the purpose of propitiating the Father: through this reconciliation we are now friends; since this was effected by his death; much more influential and efficacious will be his life. (1) We hence have ample proofs to strengthen our hearts with confidence respecting our salvation. By saying that we were reconciled to God by the death of Christ, he means, that it was the sacrifice of expiation, by which God was pacified towards the world, as I have showed in the fourth chapter."

"But the Apostle seems here to be inconsistent with himself; for if the death of Christ was a pledge of the divine love towards us, it follows that we were already acceptable to him; but he says now, that we were enemies. To this answer, that as God hates sin, we are also hated by him his far as we are sinners; but as in his secret counsel he chooses us into the body of Christ, he ceases to hate us: but restoration to favor is unknown to us, until we attain it by faith. Hence with regard to us, we are always enemies, until the death of Christ interposes in order to propitiate God. And this twofold aspect of things ought to be noticed; for we do not know the gratuitous mercy of God otherwise than as it appears from this -- that he spared not his only-begotten Son; for he loved us at a time when there was discord between him and us: nor can we sufficiently understand the benefit brought to us by the death of Christ, except this be the beginning of our reconciliation with God, that we are persuaded that it is by the expiation that has been made, that he, who was before justly angry with us, is now propitious to us. since then our reception into favor is ascribed to the death of Christ, the meaning is, that guilt is thereby taken away, to which we should be otherwise exposed."[/i]

[i](1) "By his life," the abstract for the concrete; it means, "through him being alive," being at God's right hand, having every power committed to him, and making intercession for us Romans 8:34. "Because I live, ye shall live also." John 14:19. -- Ed.[/i]

[b]On Romans 8:13 -[/b]

[i]"...It is indeed true, that we are justified in Christ through the mercy of God alone; but it is equally true and certain, that all who are justified are called by the Lord, that they may live worthy of their vocation. Let then the faithful learn to embrace him, not only for justification, but also for sanctification, as he has been given to us for both these purposes, lest they rend him asunder by their mutilated faith..."

"...however we may as yet be exposed to sins, he nevertheless promises life to us, provided we strive to mortify the flesh: for he does not strictly require the destruction of the flesh, but only bids us to make every exertion to subdue its lusts..."[/i]

All in John Calvin's own words -[url=http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_index.htm]Calvin's Commentary[/url]


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Sam

 2003/12/12 9:54Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

revivaltheology:

I am not trying to excuse John Calvin from what he has done. We all now know as we look back at history that the persecution of others for any reason is wrong.

I am merely pointing out that, Calvin apparently believed that he was doing the will of God. He earnestly believed that this was the way a Christian city should be run. And zealously he did so! (Unfortunately, zeal without true knowledge always ends up hindering God's work -- I think quite a number of Christians today are guilty of the same)

In my opinion, what he did was definitely wrong. However, he could never be accused of hypocrisy. After all, he wholeheartedly acted upon what he wholeheartedly believed. I believe that had he known what he's doing is not pleasing in the eyes of God, he would not have wilfully commit the sin. He simply was not aware of it. (Take note that likewise, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. were unaware that their polygamy was a violation of God's original ordination of marriage as the union of one man and one woman.)

One might say, "Why? It's so obviously wrong." And you might point out numerous bible verses to support your point. But the fact is, Calvin had such a different set of historical/cultural and theological presuppositions that he failed to see it. What is obvious today is not necessarily so obvious then.

The same could be said of slavery. Everyone would condemn slavery today. But several centuries ago, it was not all that obvious -- some even try to justify slavery by citing scripture. Even so, I have no doubt that there were many Christians at that time, despite failing to see the error of slavery, who are genuine, pious, and godly. And I'm sure there's a lot we can learn from some of them spiritually and theologically. I would not say that because they had condoned slavery, therefore they were bad Christians and we could not possibly learn from their spiritual experiences and their biblical teachings.

I did this in a hurry, I hope you understand what I mean.


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Sam

 2003/12/12 10:32Profile
lyndon
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Joined: 2003/12/8
Posts: 65
Manitoba, Canada

 Re:

This may be a little off topic but regarding the slavery issue and people supporting it, here is a link to an article written before the civil war; which if taken seriously by the many so called 'Christians' of that day, the civil war may have been avoided.

http://www.truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Oberlin/Come-outism.html

Also Zwingli, Calvin and Luther were all guilty of persecuting those who did not agree with them, Zwingli and Luther in paritcular 'backslid' from some of their reforms and started to persecute those who wanted the reformations to go further, all three of those (in my opinion) :) were more concerned in setting up a 'church' then they were a fellowship of believers.
I realize that this is a little strong, however when you read the history of the anabaptists and others you will see that not all of their problems/persucution came from the Catholic church. A great deal of it came from those 'reformers' and others like them.

A Work In Progress
Lyndon

 2003/12/13 14:26Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

It must be tough for God to work in this world without using any sinners. All the Reformers had their problems - some quite significant. The Reformation was a very messy time involving much violence. Luther did have regrets for how people took his teaching. He was content to write scathing critiques, but he was shocked when people actually got out and started acting as people will act when provoked to revolt against an authority.

One of many good things to come from this time was a revival of Augustinianism. Justification by faith alone. Truth comes from Scripture only. Two sacraments - not seven. Priesthood of believers. So many simple but important ideas were revived.

I guess I mostly want to respond to the parts of this thread that have wandered (as they so often do) from the original topic. I'm not a "follower of Calvin" so much as a believer who sees election in Scripture and agrees with Calvin that Augustine was pretty much on the nose when refuting Pelagius. I don't even care when God elected us - pre-fall, post-fall, in seventy-four dimensions all orthogonal to ours none of which include time, whatever. I'm very tired of people who have never even scratched the surface of Calvinism giving ridiculous critiques of it. The basics of it are so simple and obviously scriptural!

Scripture teaches that we are totally wicked and dead in sin from the fall. Therefore, we cannot bring ourselves up from the dead - God must do this. We have a will but without God's intervention it always goes the wrong way (none seeketh after God). So He has elected some to whom he gives the gift of faith and those people always respond by coming to Him in repentance and obedience. John 6 clearly teaches that all the Father has given to the Son will come to Him and that none can come to Him that the Father doesn't draw. How can this be refuted? I'm convinced that Arminians must have Bibles that are missing John 6 and Romans 9. No one can suddenly become spiritually alive just because they want to.

As for the comment about just not wanting to evangelize - get serious. Just because you have decided to put a yoke upon yourself that isn't scriptural isn't the Calvinists' fault. We get the joy of preaching the Gospel and trusting God to do the rest. You get to sweat blood nightly worrying that people are being damned by your lack of craftiness and persuasion in "getting decisions." Not that I'm not concerned about the hellbound, but I trust that if I do my part God will do His. If you believe that people just "make decisions" without God's drawing them and don't sweat blood nightly about your insufficient witness you are a fool. I thank God that He didn't entrust the furthering of His church solely to us. He is building His church and I am glad to be a part of it. Show me where God said to be clever and persuasive to get "decisions" rather than preaching the Gospel with boldness. Maybe all this "persuasion" explains the people who have to "rededicate" 50 times because they were never saved in the first place! Arminians have ruined the harvest in many ways by getting everyone "saved." Now it is just that much harder to bring people to true repentance. "I already walked down the aisle and made a "decision for Jesus"- I have grace - I don't have to do anything." That faith doesn't save according to James. Now I'm far down the rabbit trail, aren't I?

 2003/12/13 18:17Profile





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