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groh_frog
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Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 No Church? No Problem

No Church? No Problem
George Barna wants commitment to the local congregation to sink lower than ever.
Reviewed by Kevin Miller | posted 12/28/2005 09:00 a.m.

REVOLUTION:
Finding Vibrant Faith Beyond the Walls of the Sanctuary
by George Barna


Storm the barricades! According to researcher George Barna, we're in the midst of a "spiritual revolution that is reshaping Christianity, personal faith, corporate religious experience, and the moral contours of the nation."

Who's leading the coup d'état? Some 20 million people, dubbed Revolutionaries, who live "a first-century lifestyle based on faith, goodness, love, generosity, kindness, and simplicity" and who "zealously pursue an intimate relationship with God."

If true, this is amazing news, the best for American Christians in generations.

But before we break out the party poppers, we should note that, like every revolution, this one has a loser: the local church.

Unlike the Great Awakenings, which brought people into the church, this new movement "entails drawing people away from reliance upon a local church into a deeper connection with and reliance upon God." Already "millions of believers have stopped going to church," so Barna expects that in 20 years "only about one-third of the population will rely upon a local congregation as the primary or exclusive means for experiencing and expressing their faith." Down will go the number of churches, donations to churches, and the cultural influence of churches.

Are you worried about the church where you were baptized, taught, married, and given Communion? That's only a "congregational-formatted ministry," one of many ways to "develop and live a faith-centered life. We made it up." Writes Barna, "Whether you become a Revolutionary immersed in, minimally involved in, or completely disassociated from a local church is irrelevant to me (and, within boundaries, to God)." He doesn't reveal God's expectations for church involvement, but they don't seem hard to get over.

Barna illustrates with two fictional characters who "eliminated church life from their busy schedules." Why? They did not find a ministry "that was sufficiently stimulating" and "their church, although better than average, still seems flat." Too bad for the lowly local church that people today insist on having "unique, highly personalized church experiences."

So where are the Revolutionaries going? To "mini-movements" such as home schooling, house churches, Bible studies at work, and Chris Tomlin worship concerts. What matters is a godly life, so "if a local church facilitates that kind of [godly] life, then it is good. And if a person is able to live a godly life outside of a congregation-based faith, then that, too, is good."

Full Article:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/001/13.69.html

 2005/12/30 13:10Profile
groh_frog
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Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re: No Church? No Problem

Now, I'm sure that much of this will be confined to people that have actually read Revolution, but I didn't find this article to be a very good reflection of what Barna is really saying at all. Agree/disagree?

Grace and Peace...

 2005/12/30 13:11Profile
groh_frog
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Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

I recently read Revolution, and soon thereafter talked to a friend about it.

One of the conclusions that we came up with about Barna is that he's good at diagnosing the problem, but maybe not so good at perscribing the medication, so-to-speak. I thought this article was interesting, because it exploits a very one-sided view of his book. And maybe rightfully so. In reading Revolution, you have to be careful in how you percieve what he's saying.

I don't think that this article really says what he was trying to say, however.

Basically, Revolution brings up the fact that even though churches are at record highs, there's obviously a problem, if you look at some of Barna's statistics of what Christians are really doing, how they're living, what they believe. What it comes down to is that many churches are fundamentally weak. The solution for many has been to turn to smaller "house churches", or having family be the center of spiritual life, etc.

I think this book might have been a little mis-aimed, but not altogether wrong. Family must be the front-line of our learning, etc. On top of that, we must be involved in things other than just what your average church offers (sunday service, sunday evening service, 1 prayer meeting/week).

Grace and Peace..

 2005/12/30 13:18Profile
IsaacD
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 6


 Re:

What when they start persecuting us, how will we support each other?

 2005/12/30 17:24Profile









 Re: No Church? No Problem

From the article

Quote:
in the book's strongest chapter, he provides a relentless statistical indictment of the local church's failure to develop mature disciples. [b]Barna is rightly incensed at the low level of spiritual maturity in the American church[/b]: "As the research data clearly show, churches are not doing the job."

There are ways to tackle this. One is to encourage everyone who attends church to spend time with the Lord each day. Those who really want to master this, will try until they succeed. At least, they will read the Bible when they are alone, sometimes. Generally acknowledging that the enemy will make it as hard as possible to succeed, may also help some people persevere.

The other is to develop a form of gathering which is far more equal between those who attend, than the many churches who are led from the front - even if the person leading does know the Lord. I'm gradulally concluding that both types of gathering are necessary for healthy church growth - small local groups with clear autonomy, but, with oversight and the opportunity to gather as one large congregation, regularly - but not necessarily every Sunday.

 2005/12/31 7:45
CyberCarbon
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 WRONG there is A BIG PROBLEM

The real problem is no one is talking about the lack of PRAYER in either setting. Without more prayer both are doomed.


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David Michael Paul

 2006/1/2 0:31Profile
abbiegrrl
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Joined: 2005/12/28
Posts: 24
In a desert...Central Indiana at the moment

 Revolutionaries!?

Not having read this book, all I can gather from the posts so far, is that they are a lot of sheep wandering around in the fields, w/ nobody shepherding them. I'm talking about those just "doing it alone, them & God". Now, in the case of smaller, house meetings, I can dig that. Isn't that what the earliest church WAS? But, certainly, there has to be accountability w/ the leaders be it over 5 ppl, or 5,000. I kind of liked the times I was blessed to attend home-churches. But I have to also admit, they are more likely to be a bit OFF, IMHO.
P.S. I was really hoping that "Revolution" was a new book by Michael Brown of the "FIRE" school.
:-(

 2006/1/2 1:04Profile
relewis111
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Joined: 2004/12/3
Posts: 51
Pittsburgh,PA

 Re: Revolutionaries!?

What about the celebration of the sacraments? Baptism of the believer and the Lord's supper are NOT optional and one is not "living Godly" without them. If you are seeking the Lord He will be found but nevertheless the entire body of Christ is one, not little seperate pieces; Eph 4 talks of unity, not seperation. Like it or not we are soldiers who must submit to the authority over us which is remarkably absent as we walk singly upon the path of our own choosing. The kingdom of darkness is a well organized machine and here we are as Christians forsaking the assembling of ourselves; who is the auhtor of confusion and seperation?


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Richard E Lewis III

 2006/1/2 3:00Profile
groh_frog
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Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re: A Frog's Review of "Revolution"

Well, considering all of the confusion, is now a good time for a review of the book? Well, I don't have the book with me, so it'll be short and generalized.

A Frog's review of "Revolution" by George Barna:

In the opening chapter there is a short introduction to the lives of two men. Both are important and successful businessmen, both have nice families, both are comporable in many ways, and neither goes to Church anymore. These two men, however, are leading very seperate lives.

The example splits these two men apart in this: The first man, while successful in many ways, once stopping his church life, left God out of his life almost altogether. He golfs on Sunday, and looks like the typical backslidden Christian.

The second man, however, while he doesn't attend Church anymore either, still very much has the Lord in his life. But rather than focusing his spiritual life within the Church, it's focused at his family.

Thus is the introduction to a Revolutionary. This is a group of people who have begun to make the Lord more than just "church on Sunday". They are those who attend house churches, or who lead their families in worship and study. Basically, it's roughly defined as those who aren't being fed by what many of our modern-day churches offer, and so are turning elsewhere.

Now, I'll be honest that this book seems a little sketchily written. Barna is amazing at diagnosing that there's a problem, but sometimes not so good at perscribing the cure. This is where the trouble comes in.

Barna simply states that there's a problem with today's churches, in the majority. 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians, yet less than 9% of those hold a Biblical worldview- meaning that they believe that the Bible is the Word of God that he actually wants us to follow. That is a statement that should be scary to modern day Christians. The fact is that the majority of churches obviously are doing something wrong.

Now, where Barna runs into trouble is in his answer. I believe that this portion of the book is written sketchily enough as to give the aspiring backslider room to have an excuse to stop attending church. Now, also know that this isn't at all what Barna is saying, just that his writing style appears a little loose.

Rather, Barna points back towards the "proto-church" type example. Meaning: start with the family. Only about 5% of Christian families read the Bible together, pray together, or worship together outside of Church. Another common alternative to the established church is house churches or small groups. Barna even hints that some are far less conventional, such as internet fellowships (like Sermonindex).

Now, I'll stick my neck out for Barna. I see what he's trying to say. Many Christians today, and increasingly so in the future will have to decide between basing their faith in the teachings of the local church, or turning straight to alternative fellowships. Frankly, I agree with him in suggesting that if there is no solid church in which to attend, then don't waste your time there. We're all given the tools to have a living relationship with our maker, and if your relationship doesn't start there, you're probably not going to have much of a relationship- church or no church.

Anyway, I know that my outline is quick and not very specific, but I'll see about bringing in the book and getting more in depth if anyone's interested.

Grace and Peace...

 2006/1/2 11:50Profile
CyberCarbon
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Re:

There is a interview with Mr Barna at:
http://www.homileticsonline.com/subscriber/interviews/barna.asp

Here is the intro:

"George Barna is the president of the Barna Research Group, Ltd., a marketing research firm located in Ventura, California. To date, Barna has written more than two dozen books about ministry, the culture and church dynamics. Included among them are bestsellers such as The Frog in the Kettle, The Second Coming of the Church, User-Friendly Churches, The Power of Vision and Marketing the Church. His recent books include Growing True Disciples, and Boiling Point. Free subscriptions to The Barna Update are available via e-mail. Sign up at www.Barna.org.

Many people know Barna from his intensive seminars for church leaders that are produced by Barna Research and based on original research. He is a popular speaker at ministry conferences around the world and has taught at several universities and seminaries. He has served as a pastor of a large, multicultural church and has been involved in several church plants. He is currently participating in the startup of a national church association for innovative churches.

He has served on several boards of directors, including Compassion International, Evangelicals for Social Action and the Wagner Institute for Practical Leadership. He is the founding director of The Barna Institute, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing strategic information to ministries.

We met with him at his office in Ventura, California, the day after the fall of Kabul in Afghanistan, and it provoked our first question."


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David Michael Paul

 2006/1/2 15:30Profile





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