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lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
This is not our home. If it were, than God may seem cruel. But it is not... He is preparing a place for us in eternity. He is interested in the final result which is refining us as pure gold. Preparing a bride without spot or blemish for the King. If He allows us to go though a fiery trial then He will also give us the grace and wisdom to endure it. AMEN



AMEN!!!


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/28 0:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:

lastblast wrote:
Quote:
Stever's response:1 Thes 4:13-18, when describing the rapture, tells us that we will be forever with the Lord due to this event:



I believe that passage has to do with the 2nd coming of Jesus. He will bring the "dead in Christ" with Him as He promises. All those who are alive and remaining (surviving all around in the greek (#4035, strong's)will then take part in what Paul spoke of in I Cor. 15:51-52---they will be "changed" in a twinkling of an eye.....that is how fast the transformation will occur----at the LAST trump (see Rev. 10:7, Rev. 11:15-18). THIS is when the mystery of God is finished as spoken of in Rev. 10:7.

Quote:
You will have to explain to me and everyone else on this thread why the Church is never mentioned in the Book of Revelation again. All that we read about is judgment.


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Stever's response:

This has been a very long thread, and it is obvious that you have not read all of my posts.

The Outline that I find easy to use when I study the Book of Revelation (created by Jon Courson) , and that supports my understanding of this entire Book of Revelation is as follows:

The Book of Revelation is very simple- particularly because it is the only Book in the Bible with its own divine outline, found in Chapter 1, Verse 19, where Jesus told John to "write the things which thou has seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

If you follow this divine outline, the Book unfolds very easily (at least it does to me)...

1. The things which thous hast seen- Chapter 1

The reality of the resurrected Jesus

2. The things which are- Chapters 2-3
Jesus gives seven messages to seven churches, wherin lies the chronological flow of church history from the beginning of the early church to the present

3. The things which shall be hereafter
Chapters 4-5

The Church is raptured and taken to heaven for a seven year "honeymoon" with the Lord

Chapters 6-19

The Tribulation occurs on earth as God pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting, sinful world
Chapter 19

At the end of chapter 19, the Lord comes back to Jerusalem with His church to establish the kingdom

Chapter 20

The Millennium- a thousand-year period of peace and prosperity- follows as the
Lord rules and reigns from Jerusalem. At the end of the Millenium, Satan is
loosed. A final rebellion ensues before Satan is put away permanently.

Chapters 20-21

A new heaven and a new earth are created wherin we will live happlily ever after with HIM.

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That is the way that I understand it at the present time. In times past I was a mid-tribber, and at times past, past, past I did not believe in the rapture during the Tribulation, but thought that we would be raptured at the end of it (Post trib). It seems my experience is entirely opposite to teamtoucan, who took the reverse route, and now finds no belief in the rapture at all.

God bless,

Stever




 2005/12/28 2:06









 Re:

Lastblast said:

As a believer we are told that we will escape the Wrath to come.
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Do you not apply to ALL who will be saved.....in other words, ALL that the blood of Christ bought from the foundations of the world? Or, do you believe that His blood only spares "some" of His children from His wrath? Blessings in Him, Cindy

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Stever's response:

It is my understanding that "the wrath to come" refers to the time of the Tribulation. It also refers to hell. We all know that we will go through tribulation on this earth- we all go through it every day. But the word here is WRATH- WHICH IS GOD'S DIVINE JUDGMENT AGAINST SIN--against a sinless world who rejects Him. I do not qualify to receive God's wrath during the Great Tribulation and neither do other believers in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I think that you are asking- who takes part in the rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture). The dead in Christ are first, and these dead are any and all of those that lived on this earth before Christ died on the cross and that believed God and in His promise of the seed of the woman found in Genesis 3:14-15 "14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Some names would be: Abel, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lott, Moses, Samsom, Jepthae,David, Jonathan, etc. etc. etc.---all of those that resided in Abrahams bosom that Christ took captive back to heaven with Him.

Other's in the dead in Christ consist of all beleivers in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior that died after His death and resurecction on the cross.

Those that are alive, and presently, in this day and age, beleive in Crist as their Lord and Savior, will also be part of this rapture event.

Hope that clarifies my views on this important issue.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/12/28 2:41









 Re:

Quote:

lastblast wrote:
Quote:
This is not our home. If it were, than God may seem cruel. But it is not... He is preparing a place for us in eternity. He is interested in the final result which is refining us as pure gold. Preparing a bride without spot or blemish for the King. If He allows us to go though a fiery trial then He will also give us the grace and wisdom to endure it. AMEN


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Stever's response:

The Wrath to come is hardly a fiery trial. It is God's Wrath poured out on a Christ rejecting world. As Christian beliers we all go through Tribulation. But Wrath is entirely different. In the total biblical protrayal the wrath of God is not so much an emotion or an angry frame of mind as it is the settled opposition of his holiness to evil. Accordingly, the wrath of God is seen in its effects, in God's punishment of sin in this life and in the next. These inflictions include pestilence, death, exile, destruction of wicked cities and nations, hardening of hearts, and the cutting off of the people of God for idolatry or unbelief. They reach into the life to come in Jesus' descriptions of everlasting punishment, of a hell of fire, where the worm dieth not and the flame is not quenched. The day of wrath is God's final judgment against sin, his irrevocable condemnation of impenitent sinners.

As a Christian, the Holy Spirit has permanent residence in my heart. Suffering God's wrath will be given to unbeleivers who suffer from a Christ rejecting spirit, and actually hate God.

The Wrath of God is end times stuff, explained throughout Revelation that has nothing to do with the saved, only the Christ rejecting lost. When they are finally down on their backs, they will finally look up. During this time many of them will be saved. I/you/us do not require the New Birth, we already have it.

God bless,


Stever

 2005/12/28 4:27









 Re:

Quote:

lastblast wrote:
Quote:
You have spoken about the early church talking about the last week of years. I haven't read much of the early writings and was wondering where you read this


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Stever's response: Hosea has this to say- Christ is crucified and returns to His place for 2 days (2 thousand years), but returns to the earth for 1 day (1 thousand years):

1. Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth

On e day is to the Lord as one thousand years a so one day.

This could be a reference to the crucifixion. Christ leaves to His place for two years (two thousand years, but returns to revive His people and on the third day, spends 1,000 years with His saints upon the earth......

Just a thought.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/12/28 4:38









 Re:

Lastblast quoted:
"The thing is that the pre-trib camp teaches the opposite of what the church has consistantly taught for the first 1800 years of it's "birth"----they teach that the Church WILL be spared from the persecution by anti-christ.

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Stever said: The reason that the book of Revelation was allegorized and symbolized by the early Church was because of the fear of the Romans (the One World Government of the time) and tremendous persecution they were all already experiencing. The Book of Revelation reveals God's plan of placing ALL of the Governments of the World at His feet at a future time in history.Can you imagine how they would react? Even today, why do you think that Christianity is suppressed in all of the totalarian Governments aroung the world?


If we look at 2 Tim 2:16 we can see that the believers are all upset because they believe they have missed the rapture,and are now going through tremendous tribulation and trouble. Paul assures them: "

16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, SAYING THAT THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY; AND HAS OVERTHROWN THE FAITH OF SOME.
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


This surely states that the trials that they are going through have nothing to do with WRATH TO COME, and are only part of the tribulation common to us all.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/12/28 5:01









 Re: Rapture???

tinluke said:

Quote:
I don't believe in the rapture for one reason. It is contray to the word of God. In the every story of trial and tribulation throughout the Bible, God is always there to provide a way in the midst, but never to remove us from it.

Hi tinluke,

I've being thinking the term 'rapture' refers to the time when those not asleep in Christ, at His return, are 'caught up' into the air to be with Him.

I also think that if we do not have a relationship with Christ now, which is rapturous already, we may be placing [i]too[/i] much emphasis on the difference between being here on earth, and being with Him then.

 2005/12/28 6:09









 Re: Rapture???

Hi Stever,

I will be responding to your posts. Sorry to keep you waiting. The fact is, I'm not really ready to lock horns on this. I do depend entirely on the Lord revealing to me the import of His word, as the foundation of what I believe. Whatever else I read has to be compared with my understanding of what He speaks to me.

You know that I don't agree with your take on the white throne and you can be sure that I will post publicly, if I'm ever convinced otherwise.

 2005/12/28 6:14









 Re:Rapture???

I have found all of the verses I could find as to why people believe in a rapture.Ive been reading all morning and all of these verses seem to back up what I believe,that there isn't a rapture.
Alot of these verses mention about the heavens being rolled away (Matt 24),the heavens shaken (Luke 21:25-28),the heavens passing away(2 Peter 3:10) and the heavens being on fire(2 Pet 3:10).Theres alot about His coming (2 Th 2:8.),Rev 1:7, Zech.12:10, Luke 21:25-28,2 Th 2:8.
This all supports Matthew 24/Rev 6:12-17.

Its all about a second coming not a rapture.
I got all of these verses from Tim LaHaye.I even emailed Perry Stone.Im determined to find the truth out for myself and I will share anything else I find.

These are all the verses that I found from Tim Lahaye about a rapture.You may be surprised to find this is all Ive found and that it doesn't really say much about a rapture but a second coming. Study for yourself is this about the second coming or a rapture?

I even got on one websight where this fellow basically said if he can't prove it through scripture why theres a rapture than he'll go through the back door and try to prove (very weakly I might add) why we can't go through tribulation.Beware of those Jesus said that go through the back door because their theives and robbers.

Rapture???
2 Th 2:8
1 Pet 4:12-13
Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:11-20:6
Rev 22:7,v12,v20

Study to show thyself approved...2 Th.2:15

Don't take my word for it.We've got enough of that going around!

 2005/12/28 8:29
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
This has been a very long thread, and it is obvious that you have not read all of my posts.



Yes Stever, I have read all your posts. I was trying to hit on the important differences and why they are important.

You said: "
Quote:
The Church is raptured and taken to heaven for a seven year "honeymoon" with the Lord



It's this type of thing I have a problem with as do many others who want what is taught today as "Truth" shown to be Truth in the Word of God. Nowhere in scripture is there anything about a "honeymoon" with the Lord for 7 years for SOME of His kids in heaven while SOME of His kids are being severely persecuted. The issue I have with this type of teaching is that it totally ignores the biblical plan of salvation and how it works. Instead, what the pretrib doctrine does is put the timing of one's salvation in the hands of MAN.

It is my opinion regarding this doctrine that the Lord showed His way in the story of the 100 sheep. When He went to find the lost, did He take the 99 home to safety first? No, He left them in the WILDERNESS. Then when He found the lost sheep(which completed His fold), He then took ALL home to celebrate.

Jesus clearly taught that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father draws him...........He also taught that ALL the Father gave (past tense, meaning it's already a done deal), WILL come to Him(Jn. 6:37-44).........and then we read in II Pet. 3:9 that the Lord is not slack concerning His coming, but is waiting for those who will come to repentance to come to repentance. James 5:7 deals with this as well. We again see a waiting for a fulfillment of God's plans to come to pass in Rev. 6:9-11......in this we see that God will not COME to judge the ungodly UNTIL all the servants who have been appointed to martyrdom, have been martyred--------THEN His wrath will come as we see in verse 17 of chapter 6.
Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/28 10:06Profile





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