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lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Personally, I believe Rev. 11:15-18 answers it all, especially verse 18.

All of the early churches' writings contended that the church would suffer at the hands of anti-christ. I believe the ECF's writings are correct on this matter, scripturally. There is no evidence to the contrary found anywhere within their writings (even Ephraem the Syrian when read in context shows the CHURCH being persecuted and the resurrection of the just occurring after the events of Mt. 24).........Just my two cents. Blessings in Him, Cindy

PS. The "last trump" passage (I Cor. 15:51-52)POPPED at me too many years ago and led me on quite an indepth study which caused me to change my views on the rapture (I was in a church that taught pre-trib at the time). After coming to a posttrib belief of a "catching up"/resurrection, I found that this belief lined up completely with the early churches' teachings on the matter......


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/26 10:13Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Sister Rebecca,

Many people that teach a pre-tribulation rapture, probably teach that the Gentile church and then current Jewish believers are taken out of this world prior to the rapture. Most do not teach that the Holy Spirit is taken out of this world because some scriptures speak of people coming to Jesus during the tribulation and no man comes to the father unless he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. The teaching that many would speak is that during the tribulation the remnant Jews will come to Christ and endure much of the tribulation. This remnant is who Jesus would be describing in some of chapters 24 and 25. It is also said that when Jesus was asking the question about the end times at the beginning of Mathew 24, he was responding to more than one question at a time. It is also often taught that Jesus is speaking to the church being ready for the rapture when he speaks of the 10 virgins instead of the remnant Jews.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
.................................................

With the idea of the Jewish remnant coming to Jesus during the tribulation these verses out of Zachariah might be used with the surrounding verses in Zachariah.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon

Many take these verses to be as yet unfulfilled and to be eventually fulfilled when the remnant Jews, after the desecration of the temple, realized that the person Anti-Christ is revealed to them as not being the Messiah.

Some would teach that the bride of Christ is the Church and while the tribulation is going on, the Church is at the wedding in the third heaven. With this idea it would maybe be taught that Christ comes back with his raptured church and defeats the armies of the nations and sets up an earthly kingdom that is promised to the twelve tribes. At this time the land covenant the Lord made with Abraham would be set up. The land Mosses was promised as far as the eye can see.

In Christ,
GaryE


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/26 10:35Profile









 Re: Rapture??

Quote:
Some would teach that the bride of Christ is the Church and while the tribulation is going on, the Church is at the wedding in the third heaven. With this idea it would maybe be taught that Christ comes back with his raptured church and defeats the armies of the nations and sets up an earthly kingdom that is promised to the twelve tribes. At this time the land covenant the Lord made with Abraham would be set up. The land Mosses was promised as far as the eye can see.

I am in the process of tuning in to all these interpretations, but, I always like to find other scriptures, which are not necessarily directly connected (on the surface of the page) to the topic in hand (in this case, 'rapture') also fitting in to the overall scenario.

So, I've got a couple of things on my mind.

1) What happened to the meaning of Hebrews 10:12 + 13: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (?)

or Hebrews 11:39 + 40
2) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, [b]that they without us should not be made perfect[/b].

Without doubt, the idea of perfection/completion, is compatible with the marriage of the Lamb. Also, if the list in Hebrews 11 stretches [u]backwards[/u], how much more should it include those who are [u]still to come[/u] - considering that when the words were written, we ourselves had not yet been born?

3) In the same vein as that last point, the whole concept of 'remnant' seems to me to be being misunderstood. The word is used a lot of times in the Old Testament; just look at Genesis 45 for one of the earliest mentions and SEE how similar it is to the concept of (only) seven years of a great tribulation. If seven represents something of perfection, then maybe it is less to do with a specific time limited event and more to do with it accomplishing that which God sends it forth to accomplish......

In other words, I would venture that there is a remnant being saved out of every natural generation (as opposed to the generation of Jesus Christ, which is the whole Church - across 'the ages').

One of the things I find hardest to buy into in these different interpretations, is the fixing of a beginning and end of time periods. All through the Bible, there is the idea that the fulness of time for something to come to pass arrives - completely beyond the reach of man. God brings these seasons and ends them, and we have no idea - just as Jesus says - 'when' things are going to happen.... by which I mean that Jesus could have mentioned seven years (such a simple thing for Him to have commented) if it mattered for us to know .... but He doesn't; He simply says the tribulation is going to be shortened for the sake of the elect.

In general, the modern, western church's concept of tribulation leaves a great deal to be desired, because there are people - Christians - who get a very raw deal from 'the world' - and for no other reason than that they make Christian choices. Or do we think that persecution needs to include unfair trials, prison, physical beatings, threats of physical death - any difficulty less than beheading doesn't count?

If it true that more people died for Christ in the twentieth century than in any previous century, where does this leave [i]any[/i] of the interpretations of scripture, as to 'when' we are now?

Sorry if this sounds very disordered.... but, until something I hear strikes me as fitting the written word, the witness of the Holy Spirit and actual world history, I remain to be convinced (that I need to have an opinion - even - but, what I've just posted is close to my 'opinion').

 2005/12/26 11:53
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
Without doubt, the idea of perfection/completion, is compatible with the marriage of the Lamb. Also, if the list in Hebrews 11 stretches backwards, how much more should it include those who are still to come - considering that when the words were written, we ourselves had not yet been born?



BINGO!! And this is exactly why we need to understand not only those scriptures directly addressing the particular doctrine at hand, but we need to understand the "big picture" of salvation through 'peripheral' scriptures. It's when one understands the "big picture", any opposing viewpoint can be clearly shown to be at odds with the very plans/purposes of God for His Body on the earth.

This notion that during the "trib" the world will consist of another type of believer(not the "church") is at odds with the Word of God itself. Scripture clearly teaches that the Church IS the Body of Christ(Eph. 1:23, Col. 1:18). In teaching a pretrib rapture, what many are doing is denying that these saints existing on earth during a "tribulation" are part of the Body of Christ. You cannot be a part of the Body of Christ and NOT be in the Church.........impossible. One is either "in Christ" or they are not. If they are "in Christ", they are in His Body, the Church. Therefore, the Church WILL suffer persecution at the hands of anti-christ until the Second Glorious coming of Jesus Christ. Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/26 12:49Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


With me there is no problem with the idea of the church having trials and tribulation. In fact I believe that this is what we should expect if we walk with the Lord.

The teaching about the church being taken out pre-trib or mid-trib instead of post-trib has to do with the idea that the last portion of the tribulation has to do with the wrath of God. Chastisement of a Christian is different than God's wrath towards unbelievers. Many Christians do not believe that God would pour his wrath on the Church.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/26 13:53Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Yes, I understand what you're saying Gary, but the truth is, in my opinion, God's Wrath is not appointed to ANY who will be saved. It is only appointed to those who are/will be eternally condemned (I Thess. 5:9-10, Jn. 3:36). Many believe erroneously that God's Wrath will be poured out on those WHO WILL become "in Christ", but I believe Rev. 11:18 deals with this issue quite well. The Lord's "Wrath" is against the ungodly---always---- and that "wrath" will not come until judgment, when He comes. When the 7th trumpet sounds.....it is finished---the just AND the wicked are rewarded (Rev. 6:9-17, Rev. 10:7, Rev. 11:15-18). Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/26 15:42Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
the last portion of the tribulation has to do with the wrath of God. Chastisement of a Christian is different than God's wrath towards unbelievers. Many Christians do not believe that God would pour his wrath on the Church.



Gary, I forgot to ask you about this: do you believe then that there are NO conversions after a rapture? Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2005/12/26 16:05Profile









 Re:

I had to make a correction here:
It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12.

Secondly I asked myself ok is Jesus talking to us or the Jews in Matthew 24.The answer that I came up with is both the christians and the jews.Why? Because Jesus said one would be taken and the other left-Matthew 24:41.He simply told them to be ready,some jews are saved now and others are not.So now I ask myself ok than when do the 144,000 go up.The 144,000 go up in Rev. 14:as Paul said:Thess 4:17-Then we which are alive and remain,shall be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.I had to figure out if were caught up in heaven but the 144,000 are still here than how will we come together and I believe that this verse explains how we and the 144,000 will meet the Lord in the air together in Rev. 14.
I appreciate any input.

The twinkle and the last trump is only speaking of how quickly our bodies will be changed at the LAST TRUMP.

Calling a twinkle a trumpet does not make sense.Satan is the author of confusion.

 2005/12/26 17:41









 Re:

Quote:

Rebecca5 wrote:

It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12.
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Stever's response:

The rapture is unique, in that it is presented and explained to us by Paul in detail. Paul received direct, personal revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ. Paul mentions the rapture and what it entails in 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12.

At the rapture Christ comes to get his saints. At the second coming, at the end of the Tribulation, Christ comes with His saints.


I believe that Matthew 24 refers to Christ's second coming, when He comes as a thief to kill and destroy. When He comes the second time, He comes to separate the sheep from the goats. The Sheep (mostly Jews, but also others who have come to belief in the Messiah during the Tribulation) will go into the 1,000 year millennial reign with Christ, in their flesh and blood bodies. The Goats- all non-believers will be destroyed and sent to hell to wait for the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of time.


With all of the above being said, we do get a small glimpse of what happens at the rapture in other books of the New Testament:

John 14:1-3 " 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


1 John 3:2 describes the what happens to all believers, before Christ can take them with Him to His New Heaven and New Earth:

"2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


An excellent teaching book on this subject as well as other subjects is:

What the Bible Teaches
by R.A. Torrey


God bless,

Stever











 2005/12/26 19:47









 Re:

lastblast (Cindy) wrote:

".........................................."

Gary, I forgot to ask you about this: do you believe then that there are NO conversions after a rapture? Blessings in Him, Cindy




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:
I think you meant "that there are NO conversions after THE (not a) rapture?

Stever's continued response:
We are all "firstfruits of the resurrection". Christ was the first "Firstfruit", we will be "Firstfruits of the resurrection" at the rapture. Those that come to belief in Messiah during the Tribulation and are beheaded will become "Firstfruits of the Resurrection" at the Second Coming, before Christ rules and reigns with them and us for the 1,000 years. Those that are saved in their bodies of flesh and blood during the Millenial reign will also become "firstfruits of the Resurrection" after that reign, and before the Great White Throne Judgment of the damned.

All believers in Jesus Christ will take part in the "First Resurrection" and will receive bodies like Jesus Christ- new resurrected, glorified bodies that will never die.

Christ resurrected from the dead on the 17th of Abib, the Feast of Firstfruits, that God told the Israelites to keep forever as a memorial.

Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us....

Romans 8:23-25
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!
James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures


Christ resurrected from the dead on the 17th of Abib, the Feast of Firstfruits, that God told the Israelits to keep as a memorial forever-- see Leviticus:


Lev 23:10-15 describes this forever memorial:
10. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11. And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
13. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

God bless,

Stever

 2005/12/26 20:26





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