I don't have a problem with the word "rapturo",I believe we will be caught up but I only see one catching up and thats not until somewhere between chapter 6 and seven because we don't appear before the throne till Rev.7:9 and the stars of heaven have to fall, the sun has to become black, and the moon turns to blood.Isn't that what Jesus said in Matthew 24???Than shall you see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven Matt. 24:30.
| 2005/12/25 16:25|
Oh ok.. so you are questioning the 'when' of the rapture and not the 'if?' I thought you were questioning if there is a rapture.
| 2005/12/25 17:52||Profile|
Yes, I believe their is a catching up but not a rapture.The bible clearly says that we shall see the son of man coming in the clouds and He shall gather His elect from the four corners of the earth.Matt. 24:31 There's nowhere else in Revelation where you see the church going up.
I think its pretty far fetched to call a "twinkle" a rapture-1 Cor 15:52.We shall go up LIKE a twinkle meaning an atom of time but they are refering to the word "twinkle" as THE RAPTURE and than the trumpet sound as another catching away all together.
It may seem like apples and oranges to some people but I wouldn't want to be responsable for this doctrine.
| 2005/12/25 19:32|
| Re: Catching Up|
Please correct me if you feel Im wrong but heres my take on it:
IN ORDER OF EVENTS:
Rev.6:9 Souls slain for word of God (us)
Rev.6:10 saints call for God to avenge their blood
Rev 6:11 white robes given
Rev6:12 stars fall,moon turns to blood,sun blackened ect...
Rev.6:14 heaven departs as a scroll
Rev 6:16 men of the earth tell the mountains and rocks to fall on them
Rev 7:1 angels hold 4 corners of 4 winds
Rev 7:3 angels seal servants of God on foreheads
Rev 7:9 a great nation of every multitude stands before the throne
Rev 7:13 elders say whence came they?
Rev 7:14 answer: These are they that came out of great tribulation
At the last of the seven trumpets were all changed in the twinkling of an eye!
| 2005/12/25 20:05|
| Re: Catching Up|
The reason 1 Cor 15:52 was written is because the Corinthians were concerned with what would happen to their bodies after this life.The apostle Paul was just telling them that they would recieve new bodies and that we would be changed in the twinkling of an eye when the last trumpet sounds.Then he goes on to talk about this corruption putting on incoruption.
I also wanted to point out that you cannot use just ONE scripture verse to base your belief or doctrine on.In this case their basing it on ONE WORD "TWINKLE".
| 2005/12/25 20:37|
| Re: Rapture???|
I love the WORDING of the word of God, it's like your a lawyer and your reading the fine print, and that is exactly how the LORD would have it.
For example: When Jesus was being taken up into heaven and the desciple watched Him, notice it says a cloud (singular) RECIEVED Him out of their site.
Now when it comes in connection with the rapture teaching it says,
"Behold He cometh with clouds (Plural)
Why I am saying all this, well I don't believe for a moment that these words were just scribbled down for nothing, I believe that every word and wording means something.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Let me high light the latter part of this verse, "In like manner" the same way He went, He will come again.
But the way He went was by ONE cloud, the second way is by more than one cloud.
Now, I am not going to answer this rapture question, but I want you to do your own digging.
The answers are found in the old testement and one needs to do a study about clouds and what they mean.
Remember the wording is important, nothing is to be taken lightly, even Jesus said that the jot and the tittle is important.
| 2005/12/25 23:46|
hi, my take mon the rapture is so weird that i will not tell anyone who does not really know me well. i will share that the onlyway to clear up the problem of the foolish virgins is to be ready today. i never advise anyone to study the future because today is the day of salvation. noone is guaranteed a tomorrow. Jesus said to take no thought of tomorrow.Jesus did not say He was or that He will be, He said before abraham was I am. faith is now....jimp
| 2005/12/26 1:18||Profile|
Some people believe that the last trump is described in Rev. 4:1.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
This is the very next verse after the warnings and exhortations to the Seven Churches. In all the verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 you see what would be the key verses to the rapture. There is an exhortation to the way a believer should be living his or her life before and after the verses that speak of what many call the rapture. Verses 4:16+17 would be the key verses.
Some people separate the forth chapter from the fifth chapter and use the fifth as speaking about his second coming at the end of the tribulation. Other people believe the forth and fifth chapters are both speaking of the rapture. It is because of the words day of the Lord in the beginning of chapter 5 that some don't use this with chapter 4 but instead believe that chapter 5 is speaking of the end of tribulation when the Lord comes with his saints.
1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
| 2005/12/26 8:15||Profile|
1 Th 4:16-For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the arc angel and with the trump of God... read this verse along with Matt 24:31-
and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect...
than read Rev.7:1,2-4 angels holding the four winds...and He(another angel)cried with a loud voice...
Theres 3 scriptures...This to me is all speaking of the second coming of Christ
1 Thess 5:3..sudden destruction comes on them and they shall not escape...Look at Rev 6:16 And they said to the mountains and rocks Fall on us,and hide us from Him(GOD)who sits upon the throne...This is all the second coming...
Please share any scripture you might have.I am open...I just don't see it.As far as I see we don't go up until the sixth or seventh seal and I only see one coming of Christ.
| 2005/12/26 9:25|
Interesting topic, also a very controversial one.
Here's my take on the rapture:
The term is used to describe an event, spoken of in several places in the Bible, in which Christ returns to "snatch up" His church from the world. I don't see the controversy as being whether or not there be such an event, but rather, in the timing of the event.
One instance of the event being discussed is found in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 -- "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus shall we always be with the Lord."
From these two verses, we see that five things occur at the rapture:
1) Christ appears in the air.
2) There are loud voices (Shouts or Cries).
3) There is a trumpet.
4) The dead in Christ rise first.
5) Then, the Christians who are still alive are caught up.
Now the big question is: "WHEN???" When does this event of Christ "snatching up" His people occur?
In a nutshell, there are three prevailing opinions pertaining to the timing of the Rapture:
The Pre-Tribbers, such as the authors of the "Left Behind" books, say that the rapture will occur before another event occurs, known as the Great Tribulation, which they believe is a seven year period of unprecedented evil and judgement unleashed on the earth by Satan and God. They believe that Jesus will bail all the Christians out of here before all hell breaks loose.
The Mid-Tribbers, on the other hand, believe that Christians will have to endure the first three and a-half years of the Great Tribulation, and then they will be bailed out. This was a popular view back in the 1980s, but it seems to have died out of late.
Finally, the last camp are the Post-Tribbers, which believe that the rapture will not occur until after the time of great tribulation has ran its course.
In my opinion, if you read the Scriptures dealing with these events and take them literally, they clearly show that Christ will not return to gather His people until after the time of great tribulation.
In Matthew's gospel, chapter 24 and verse 36, Jesus says:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my Father only."
While this verse does reveal that no one knows the actual day or hour that Christ shall return, that decision is the Father's only, the Scripture clearly reveals where the rapture fits into the sequence of prophetic events.
Jesus put all of these events into perfect perspective in Matthew chapter 24:
"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN; AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31).
Now, compare what is stated in these verses with what I wrote earlier from 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. Again, we see the same five events transpiring:
1) In Matt. 24:30 we see the Son of Man (Jesus) appearing in the sky.
2) Again, we have a shout or cry, with the tribes of the earth mourning.
3) In verse 31, we see the great trumpet again.
4) In both passages, angels are mentioned at the gathering of the elect from the four winds: that is the east, west, north, and south. I believe that these are those alive on the earth at the time of His return.
5) The angels also gather the Christians from one end of the sky to the other. I believe these are the dead in Christ.
I do not believe it is a stretch at all to say that both of these passages (Matt. 24: 29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17) are describing the same event. That being the case, Matthew 24:29 clearly answers the question regarding the timing of this event:
"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..."
However, it may be said that one passage of Scripture is not enough to form a basis for a belief, so let's look at a passage from 1 Corinthians:
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP; FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
Again, it is rather obvious that the same event is being described: there is a trumpet sounding and the dead being raised and the living being changed--THE RAPTURE!
We are told here that this event will take place at THE SOUND OF THE LAST TRUMPET. Do we know when the last trumpet will sound? Again, the Bible is clear: the seven trumpets are mentioned in Revelation 8:1-11 and 15-18, where there are seven angels sounding seven trumpets, each bringing forth a different judgement upon the earth.
Now, look at what Rev. 10:7 says:
"But in the days of the VOICE OF THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as He has declared to His servants the prophets."
Keep in mind, the passage in 1 Cor. where Paul stated:
"BEHOLD, I SHOW YOU A MYSTERY..."
This passage in Rev. also speaks of a MYSTERY--the mystery of God is the gathering of His people--THE RAPTURE!
Then in Rev. 11:15-18:
"AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED (the trumpet); and THERE WERE GREAT VOICES IN HEAVEN (shouts), saying, 'The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.'
And the twenty-four elders, who sat before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, 'We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, who is, who was, and who is to come, because You have taken unto You Your great power, and have reigned. And the nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, AND THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE REWARDS UNTO YOUR SERVANTS, the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.'"
This is the time of the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them; AND I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE THAT WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead (non-Christians) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection; on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
This is the first resurrection, when believers in Christ, at the trumpet of God, shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Matthew 24 clearly tell us this event will not take place until AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
Also, I would add, there are only two resurrections, not three. According to the Pre-Tribbers, there has to be at least three resurrections in order to get those who are saved during the tribulation resurrected. But Jesus said there would only be two resurrections: A resurrection of the just (the first resurrection), and the resurrection of the unjust (the second resurrection after the thousand year reign of Christ):
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hears His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).
This means, there could not have been a resurrection seven years earlier before the Tribulation, as the Pre-Tribbers say. Or else, the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20:4-6 is the second resurrection, and the resurrection of the unjust (non-Christians), one thousand years later, is the third. It doesn't work; it doesn't jive with how Jesus said it would be.
Well, that's my take on it. I'm open to any further revelation in this area that anyone might give.
| 2005/12/26 9:58||Profile|