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 Rapture???

I have been doing alot of research on this idea of a "rapture" and its nowhere to be found in scripture."Rapture" is a Latin word which is actually pronounced "rapturo".Why are christians changing the Greek and Hebrew into Latin are we catholic or christians??? To make a very long study into this short this is what Ive found:
1."Rapture" is Latin for "caught up" in Thess. 4:17
2.The apostle Paul said that we are going up at the LAST TRUMP 1 Cor. 15:52
3.The last trump is in Rev.11:15 which means Jesus may have been speaking to the jews here because we appear in Rev.7.

 2005/12/25 11:20
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 Re: Rapture???

This is a great subject to continue to study and pray about. My personal conviction is that we need to be living daily and hourly as if Jesus was coming back and anticipating that return. The parable of the virgins and matthew 24 and 25 help me alot for a simple view of this doctrine.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/12/25 12:01Profile









 Re: Rapture???

It seems to me that Rev.12:5 is where the 144,000 are CAUGHT UP-(not "RAPTURO").Revelation 7:9 has to be us.Rev.7:9-After this I beheld and lo a great number of ALL nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and before the Lamb,clothed with white robes,and palms in their hands.
What Jesus described in Matthew 24:29-31 is exactly what happens in Rev.6:12-7:1.This happens right before we appear before the throne in 7:9 just as Jesus said.
1.sun black as sackcloth
2.moon as blood
3.stars of heaven fall
4.fig tree casts her untimely figs
5.angels holding the four winds of the earth
If this is the case we are not CAUGHT UP-(not Rapturo) till the fifth seal.Rev.6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.v11 And white robes were given to every one of them...

 2005/12/25 12:27









 Re:


I believe the rapture is a great deception in the church to keep christians from getting too serious in their walk with the Lord.This may be the reason that there will be such a great falling away.Too many christians caught with no oil in their lamps.

 2005/12/25 12:35
lamuskrat
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Joined: 2005/10/3
Posts: 117
Gonzales, La

 Re: Rapture???

Interesting study:
A Jewish Wedding
As Christ is called the bridegroom and the church is called the bride, Christ was/is a Jew. Special attn. to the (time line and sequence of events) return of the groom and seven days for consummation of the wedding.

Note this study will also open eyes to the pre/post/mid trib question.

Alot can be learned if we would study Jewish culture/tradition/feasts and ceremonies


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Mike Androne

 2005/12/25 13:19Profile









 Re:

Speaking of symbolism and the Jewish wedding,not that Im much into numbers but we actually appear before the throne(WEDDING ALTER???) at the sixth seal and God recieves the incense of our prayers at the GOLDEN ALTER after the SEVENTH seal is broken.This happens before the first trumpet begins to sound when God pours out His wrath on the world.We also appear in the SEVENTH chapter of Revelation.Also SEVEN chapters later in chapter 14 the 144,000 are caught up with us.

 2005/12/25 13:39
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re: Rapture???


I agree with what Greg said. It seems to me that it is easy to see a tone in the New Testament that speaks of a person being ready. It seems to me they expected Jesus to return in their lifetime and we should expect him the same way.

Here is someone else's opinion and statement:

...............................................


Rapture Myths

Tom's Perspectives

by Thomas Ice


Hardly a week goes by that I don’t receive material opposing the pre-trib rapture which is filled with all kinds of error, both Scriptural and historical. For example, I ran across an article entitled "Origin of the Secret Rapture Theory." The first sentence said, "It may surprise and even shock you that neither the word ‘rapture’ nor the teaching of a secret rapture is not mentioned in ANY Christian literature prior to 1830—including the Bible!" I am hardly surprised or shocked that anyone could pack so much error into a single sentence, but there we have for all to see. This month I want to deal with some of the popular myths about the pre-trib rapture teaching that Dr. LaHaye and I very much believe is taught in the New Testament Scriptures.

The Term "Rapture"

First of all, the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazô means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio "to seize, snatch, tear away." It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as "rapture."

In Europe, during the Middle Ages and Reformation periods, the theologians were from various countries and therefore spoke different native tongues. However, the single language of the church, both Catholic and Protestant was Latin. In fact, many of the first books written and published in the American Colonies during the seventeenth century were in Latin. For example, Cotton Mather’s famous history of the American Colonies during the seventeenth century was written in Latin and called Magnalia Christi Americana, or The Great Works of Christ in America. Because it was done in Latin it could be read throughout Europe by the educated class. Thus, it should not be surprising to anyone that many new words came into the English language from a Latin source, especially in the realm of theology. Rapture is just such a word.

While it is technically true that the word rapture does not appear in the English Bible, it does, nevertheless, appear in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. Certainly the notion of a rapture appears many times in the Bible. Translators of the Bible into English could have been justified had they translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with the English word "rapture." They also could have translated it by the word snatch. We could just as easily call the rapture "the great snatch."

I have in my personal library at least 50 commentaries on 1 Thessalonians. Virtually all of them use the word "rapture" to describe the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. They do not appear interested in using it in a derogatory way nor do any of them go on an excursus about how this word does not appear in English translations. Most of these commentators do not hold to a pre-trib rapture view. They merely use the word because they know that it is one of the many Latin words that have made it into the English theological vernacular. Sorry that some have not yet heard.

The rapture does occur in the Bible, especially if you read the Latin Vulgate. However, there is no doubt that the Greek word harpazô in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, usually translated into English "caught up," conveys the rapture concept.

"Rapture" Usage

Our anti-rapture diatribe noted earlier said, "the word ‘rapture’ nor the teaching of a secret rapture is not mentioned in ANY Christian literature prior to 1830." Oh really! It is not hard to find out when English words were first introduced into the language. One needs only to check The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and it will cite examples of the history of the usage of the word. The oldest word in the "rapture" family is "rapt." OED cites examples of rapt occurring in 1400 in English literature. The earliest instances of "rapture" in secular English literature are cited as 1605, 1607, and 1608. OED provides seven nuances of the word Rapture. The fourth entry is the biblical one defined as "The act of conveying a person from one place to another esp. to heaven; the fact of being so conveyed." Two examples of this use are cited from the seventeenth century. The first by a writer named Ward in 1647 and the other by J. Edwards (not the American Jonathan) in 1693. It does not take long to realize that these examples are well before 1830.

Joseph Mede (1586-1638), considered in his day, a brilliant English exegete wrote a commentary on Revelation in 1627 called Clavis Apocalyptica (Key of the Revelation). In it he said, "Therefore, it is not needful that the Resurrection of those which slept in Christ, and the Rapture of those which shall be left alive together with them in the air . . ." While Mede was a premillennialist, he did not hold to a pre-trib rapture. Nor did the commentator and theologian John Gill (1697-1771) who wrote around 1745 the following in his commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:17: ". . . and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be together with them; . . ."

To admit that the word rapture was used in the English language at least a couple of hundred years before J. N. Darby came along does not in the least mean that one believes in pretribulationism. The Greek word harpazô is used fourteen times in the New Testament. In addition to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is used at least three more times of one being raptured to heaven (2 Cor. 12:2, 4; Rev. 12:5). So there is no need to get upset over the use of the Latin based, English word "rapture." It is a biblical word.

The "Secret" Rapture Myth

Included in the above tirade is an equation of the so-called "secret" rapture with pretribulationism. Sorry, but this is another mistake, another myth. In all my reading of pretribulationism and discussion with pretribulationists, I have never, that I can recall, heard a pre-trib rapturist use the nomenclature of "secret" rapture to describe our view. I have only heard the phrase "secret" rapture as a pejorative term used exclusively by anti-pretribulationists. Why? Apparently they enjoy fighting with a straw man.

Anti-pretribulationist, Ken Gentry declares, "On the very surface it is remarkable that one of the noisiest verses in Scripture is said to picture the secret rapture." The truth of the matter is that Gentry wrongly assumes that pretribulationists characterize their view of the rapture as "secret." We do not! However, there are anti-pre-trib rapture advocates, like Dave MacPherson who have taught this myth. As a result, unwitting critics like Gentry have absorbed this myth into their rhetoric without doing their homework.

Very likely it was Dave MacPherson who has spread this myth that equates pretribulationism with a secret rapture. "In 1880 William Reid, in his book on Brethrenism," declares MacPherson, "stated that ‘Edward Irving contributed the notion of . . . the secret rapture of the saints.’" MacPherson later concludes, "The pretrib rapture eventually became known as the ‘secret rapture.’ This label was based on the presupposition that only certain persons would have privileged visibility or knowledge during the occurrence of this catching up." MacPherson does not actually reference anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture when he makes these statements. It is through slight of hand that he slips such an assumption into his plot of fictional myths about the origins of pretribulationism.

In fact, Brethren researcher R. A. Huebner refutes MacPherson’s misinformation about the pre-trib rapture and its supposed association with a secret rapture teaching. Huebner notes that supposed relation of pretribulationism and a secret rapture are built upon the following false historical assumptions: First, the "erroneous notions are the result of the myth that the Irvingites held a pretribulation rapture and also results from trying to link J. N. D. with this falsified Irvingism." Second, when speaking of events transpiring in the 1830s, Huebner says, "the Secret Rapture as used at that point in time did not refer to the pretribulation rapture." Third, "it seems that up to this point in time [the 1830s, T. D. I.], ‘Secret Rapture’ referred to a rapture at the appearing [the second coming, T. D. I.]." Fourth, "I am not aware if JND ever thought that the rapture would be ‘secret.’"

It was the Irvingites, and not the Brethren, who believed in the secret rapture. Since the secret rapture and pretribulationism are not the same, this is where much of the confusion resides. The Irvingite view of the secret rapture was a belief that a few enlightened ones would be taken right before the second coming at the end of the tribulation. This is what Irvingite, Margaret Macdonald’s revelation is about. It is impossible to find a pre-trib rapture of any kind in her vision.

Conclusion

I am sure that this call to anti-pre-trib rapture advocates will not result in much of a reduction of their zealous proclamation of mythological falsehoods about our blessed hope. It seems that too many are blinded by their zeal to oppose the biblical teachings of the any-moment hope of the rapture for them to take time to get their information straight. No wonder Columba Graham Flegg, in his scholarly work on the Irvingites spoke specifically of Dave MacPherson’s work as "less scholarly." Flegg said, the "conclusions reached in this work and the rationale behind them are hardly convincing." Now why is an expert on the Irvingites not impressed with MacPherson’s work? Because Flegg has a thorough knowledge about the times in which MacPherson writes and realizes that he is spinning out myths. Maranatha!


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/25 14:17Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


{Quote}

I believe the rapture is a great deception in the church to keep christians from getting too serious in their walk with the Lord.This may be the reason that there will be such a great falling away.Too many christians caught with no oil in their lamps.
.................................................

Sister Rebecca,

There are many other people who use this forum that believe similar to the way you do about a rapture. There are many who believe the opposite too. You should realize though that the people who believe the opposite to what you believe, believe that to take your position is a great deception in the church. They think of people not wanting to walk close to Jesus and be ready this moment {twinkling of an eye} as people who aren't getting to serious in their walk with the Lord and that their not being prepared for an instant rapture is because there is a great falling away today. Their position is that if you are not prepared with oil in your lamp this instant, you are not prepared for the rapture when it comes. So, the very same things you mentioned in the quote are the same words the opposite position on the rapture would speak.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/25 14:56Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

How can you say there is no "rapture?" I understand some arguing the 'when' but how can you argue the "if"?

For those that don't like the word "rapture" I hope they don't use the word "Trinity." I wouldn't want anyone to by hypocrital and say that if a word isn't in the Bible it is false. I'm sure there are several theological words that are used that are not in the Bible but are supported by the Bible. You surely believe in the incarnation, right? That word is not in the Bible.

Here are some thoughts...

How can Jesus come with his saints untill after He has come for His saints? Or how can those that are alive be caught up if they all are going to be killed?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/12/25 16:14Profile









 Re: Rapturo


I really respect what others want to believe.Im just trying to understand WHAT they believe.In 1 Corinthians 15:52 from what I am understanding this is what the rapture believers are saying:
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump...
THIS IS IT IN A NUTSHELL.ARE YOU READY?
1.First there is a twinkle-(RAPTURO)
2.Than there is the last trump-(SECOND TRUMP)
Am I correct? Two trumpets in this one verse???
So there's the twinkle than there's another trump??? Sounds nutty to me.
I don't really have too much of a problem with the word rapturo other than the fact alot of people have made it into one seperate event apart from meeting the Lord in the clouds.Atleast it is being made to appear as two seperate events from my point of view because I only see one coming of Christ.
Rev.6:14 And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...Obviously we will see Christ after the heavens are rolled away.This happens after the stars fall,the moon turns to blood and the sun becomes black as sacloth.Than theres the 4 angels in Rev 7:1 and there we are in Rev.7:9!Greg told me to look at Matthew 24 and thats what Ive found.Don't get me wrong Im really trying to understand this rapture business.

 2005/12/25 16:15





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