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Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
I have noticed when we at Sermon Index talk the "church in America" we tend to identify the church synonymously with the nation...like we are a type of Christian Israel. We don't seem to do this with regards to churches in other nations like Pakistan, or China. I wonder why that is...I'm not really sure.



I know exactly why - America claims claims to be a Christian Nation with a Christian president - these others nations do not. This actually put Christ to open shame in front of the entire world.

Quote:
when we talk about American Christianity we will examine the worst examples, like the televangelists, mega-church corporations, or liberal seminaries...but when we talk about Chinese Christianity we don't highlight their worst examples but their finest. Again, I wonder why that it is.



Again, I know exactly why that is. The vast majority of American Christianity is a big sick joke. The vast majority of Christianity in the other countries of which you mention is not a joke but a living example of New Testament reality. As soon as (God forbid) the Chinese, Indian and Pakistani Church is flooded with self serving televangelists, greedy mega-church corporations, or watered down lackadaisical liberal seminaries we will give them the same focus and shame as we give the the joke we Americans call "christianity"

Quote:
When we talk about the Church in America, let's mean the faithful remnant like we tend to do for the Church in other nations.



On this I can agree. When I am talking about the Church as the faith remnant and true body of Christ talked about in the New Testament I use a capital "C". But when I am speaking of the sick and perverted joke that Americans call church or christianity I always use a lower case "c".


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/12/22 2:26Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I know exactly why - America claims claims to be a Christian Nation with a Christian president



I don't know if America claims itself as Christian...but certainly there is a recognition of Christian historical elements and remaining cutural reminders of this. However I think the majority of Americans recognize other philosophical foundations as well for our nation...including economic and free trade concerns. (No Taxation without Representation...)

Our founding national motto was E Plurbus, Unum---out of many, one. It wasn't untill the 1950's that President Ike changed the motto to "In God we Trust". Perhaps I can be cynical and conclude much of our 20th century fundamentalist God and country religion was little more then part of a useful Cold-War idealogical struggle with communism...I don't know. Perhaps Norman Rockwell worked for the state department. ;-) My point is not to allow our dissolusionment over those lost Norman Rockwell images to crowd out the reality that Christianity is still very much alive in America. This website is just one thermometer indicating the commitment for Christ that still exists here.


Quote:
As soon as (God forbid) the Chinese, Indian and Pakistani Church is flooded with self serving televangelists, greedy mega-church corporations, or watered down lackadaisical liberal seminaries we will give them the same focus and shame as we give the the joke we Americans call "christianity"



Well we have the market cornered on televangelists...we are the world's leading exporter. However, get your shame hose out and get ready to spray because there are many abberant, superstitious, and dead forms of Christianity throughout the world. We just don't recognize these "christians" because they are not evangelical...they aren't on our radar...

Quote:
The vast majority of American Christianity is a big sick joke.The vast majority of Christianity in the other countries of which you mention is not a joke but a living example of New Testament reality.



I know you know this, but the real world is hardly so neat and clean. How you stated that seems hopelessly romantic to me...In my limited experience I have come to believe that there are plenty of problems and character defects to go around.

This may shock some fellow Americans, but I have come across places that are far more materialistic then our own hometowns. It is a myth that greed is a peculiar American virtue...yet we have a handful of highly visible religous con artists on TV and the reality of America is skewed.

I'm not going out of my way to whitewash the US...but I think you are being set up for a shock if you think things are worse here then abroad. Just because we are finding that we weren't what we thought we were...let's not go to far and think this is the darkest nation on Earth. There are darker places indeed brother...

In the end, I do not want to squelch anyone's concern for the spiritual condition of America...we should welcome the message of repentance and revival. I share it! My thoughts are simply attempting to measure things as they are...blessings to you brother!

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/12/22 5:43Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

"This is a very good question brother. It's one that is hard to swallow or try to put our minds around. I believe it we look plainly at the situation in North America the church is so far from the New Testament orginally its saddening. I just heard a sermon of Ravenhill saying that the difference between apostolic christianity and our modern day christianity is like an grand canyon apart."



I'm not so sure the church of today is any different than the New Testament church. The epistles to the churches prove that from the very start of the church there were heresies and divisions aplenty! Read the letters to the churches in Revelation these were real churches that had real problems of heresies and apathy and spiritual deadness, just like today.

To try to construct some sort of perfect "new testament" church today is pure fantasy, because some utopian church never existed in the first place.

 2005/12/22 6:21Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Hope For America

brethren
There is hope indeed for the Church and that hope rests in the fact that the gates of hades will NOT prevail against it. the Church at this stage is so far from what the Lord had intended it to be and is in dire need of purification. this purification will come by way of fire, the fire of persecution. the Lord has made it plain to me that the world is set to go through great turmoil and we here in America will in nowise escape it. What does this mean then? our lives of comfort as we know them will come to an abrupt end in short order. only then will the majority of people come to repentance because right now, we're too busy with other things such as worshipping mammon and ourselves. the thought of being uncomfortable in any way is not very appealing but dear brethren consider this, Christ is the Son of God yet He was hated and was killed on the cross for our salvation and to the glory of God. what right then have we to think we are beyond persecution? i think we need it and i pray it comes soon that we would be purified by God and become acceptable in His sight. We should seek persectution even, i say this not in some twisted masochistic way but in that our lives driven of the Spirit of God should be offensive to the world. look at how it was for the early Church. our brethren suffered such persecution because they would have no part in the "in things" of the time. they suffered all manner of persectutions, crucifixions, beheadings, all but 1 of the apostles was martyred. many since then have been drowned, hanged and all kinds of other twisted things the mind of man can come up with for toture done to them for the sake of Christ. We are not persecuted by the world today not because the world has become more sophisiticated but because the gospel we preach is not in any way offensive to the world, in fact the world scoffs at us because we are so impotent. another thing i see about this fear of persecution is the thought that we have to endure it alone. i think of the different ways in which the people of God were martyred over the years and one thing is clear, the Lord made every provision for every one to endure till the very end so none of them had to die of their own strength for noone could.

bro greg wrote that the Lord can restore things and indeed He can but the patter i've seen in His dealings with men is that there is first a destruction that comes and then restoration afterward.

bro Karl wrote

Quote:
America has more than 5 righteous souls, I don't believe that America has crossed the line.



but scripture says that none are righteous, not even one! the only righteousness we have is Christ and that comes only by repentance and in my experience repentance is not a popular thing and never has been.

bro Patrick wrote

Quote:
I fear that is all that is left for America - please pray with tears that I am wrong! Let us all have the boldness of Jeremiah to warn others to flee the wrath to come and be reconciled to God!



there are and will come more people the Lord will so emboldened of God as to rise up and scream from wherever they may be "REPENT, REPENT, REPENT or DIE!" The Lord has been burdening me with what He is about to do here and i tell you, it will be unlike anything ever before it but those who will repent will surely do so.

bro Mike wrote


Quote:
I don't know if America claims itself as Christian...but certainly there is a recognition of Christian historical elements and remaining cutural reminders of this. However I think the majority of Americans recognize other philosophical foundations as well for our nation...including economic and free trade concerns. (No Taxation without Representation...)



if you go out and ask people "is America a Christian nation?" many people will say "yes it is" our conduct does not really suggest that...we seem to honour God more with our lips than have our hearts really set on Him...i think people will be quicker to note the Christian or JudeoChristian foundations of our nation than taxation without representation or the other things this nation was founded on.

jimbob wrote

Quote:
I'm not so sure the church of today is any different than the New Testament church. The epistles to the churches prove that from the very start of the church there were heresies and divisions aplenty! Read the letters to the churches in Revelation these were real churches that had real problems of heresies and apathy and spiritual deadness, just like today.



the N.T. Church at it's inception and the Church as we know it today are vastly different. the one turned the world upside down the other embraces it. the one was powered by the Holy Spirit, the other doesn't even know who the Holy Spirit is, the one was persecuted, the other is pampered. bro the Old Paths that were trodden on by our brethren before us are the Paths which should be following. while there was indeed heresies that needed to be combated, the saints of old did strive against such but not so much today "don't judge" is thrown about all over the place so out of context it's crazy. the Lord has those saints of old pratice the faith in a certain way (how they met, how they lived and so on) and He does expects us to do just that and we're not...

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT or DIE!


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/22 10:43Profile
CyberCarbon
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 J. Vernon McGee once said

"If the judgment of God does not fall on the United States of America, He will owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."


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David Michael Paul

 2005/12/22 10:45Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re: J. Vernon McGee once said

I think we long for a culture that was more [like] Christianity. Many on SI have no experience of times past. Whether those times were more pure or not most only hear others talk of times past. I am almost 50, born into a generation that began in a time of "cultural revolution," I now am only beginning to see the effects of secular humanism. I believe that believers are beginning to understand as Lot did about his generation. His soul was "vexed." Whether we live in a time of blessing or cursing, what is most important is that we truly experience the "Life" that teaches us what it means to live in the time that has been determined for us.

These experiences become the treasure. This treasure finds its definition in trials, tribulations, and spiritual battles. This treasure leads one to discover peace that can only be experienced in the grace that God gives. This grace creates a new name for those who follow. They are the "called out."

We have already experienced the loss of the cultural war in America.

Dr Sam Francis, the syndicated columnist and author of "Revolution from the Middle, writes,

"We must understand clearly and firmly that the dominant authorities in ... the major foundations, the media, the schools, the universities, and most of the system of organized culture, including the arts and entertainment--not only do nothing to conserve what most of us regard as our traditional way of life, but actually seek its destruction or are indifferent to its survival. If our culture is going to be conserved, then we need to dethrone the dominant authorities that threaten it."

What is the most perfect way of dethroning Satan?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/22 12:37Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
apostolic Christianity and our modern day Christianity is like an grand canyon apart."...I'm not so sure the church of today is any different than the New Testament church. The epistles to the churches prove that from the very start of the church there were heresies and divisions aplenty!



I think it was Ron (Philologos) who pointed out that while we may be quite substandard to apostolic Christianity...we are not so different from New Testament Christianity. To your point jimbob;
Quote:
Read the letters to the churches in Revelation these were real churches that had real problems of heresies and apathy and spiritual deadness, just like today.



I think this is a worthwhile distinction. As an American, I don't want to become overly focused on "us" and our loathsomeness. As a contrast to our weariness in well doing I remember reading recently that several Chinese house church leaders wrote a letter to President Bush, thanking him for using his influence to have several imprisoned brothers in China released. I couldn't help but consider that these are the people living under political oppression and they are expressing gratitude...while many American Christians, especially here at SI, seem to have only disdain and cynicism.

Brethren let me share an irony of humility I have observed...I once watched a business go into bankruptcy over the painful period of two years. During that time, the various people involved in this business were impacted in varying degrees. Some such as the owners, the investors, and the principle officers experienced great loss of wealth and legal pressures. Yet during this period these men seemed to become strong enough to handle the occurrence... even becoming philosophically thankful that in the end, it was only a temporary trial. To these men, I noticed how they took stock in other blessings such as health and family. That was years ago, and occasionally I will talk to one of these men who regard their trial as a painful yet somehow sweet time of dependency in the Lord.

On the other end of the spectrum there were employees whose only loss was that of employment...no small inconvenience yet at the same time a rather common event. Though they did not lose houses, wealth, or reputation, these men became bitter, cynical, and accusatory...to this day they can not talk about those last days without unforgiveness and slander in their speech.

The reason I bring this up, is that I believe we Americans act like employees and not owners...there is always someone else to blame for the problems in the church. There is much darkness to curse...cursing the inventory of problems in the church could keep a man busy for a hundred lifetimes and then some. Meanwhile we boast about our desire to join the ranks of the persecuted church, but in reality we are not prepared at all for political persecution and suffering because we do not know how to let go of bitterness so that love for our enemies may fill our hearts.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/12/23 2:29Profile





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