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CyberCarbon
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Free will, Depends on your point of view

Since God is present in all times ( He was, He is and He will be) from His point of view, everything is predestined. From our point of view ( we can only move forward), it is all free will. The real question is our relationship to time itself.


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David Michael Paul

 2005/12/20 7:23Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Free will, Depends on your point of view

Quote:
Since God is present in all times ( He was, He is and He will be) from His point of view, everything is predestined. From our point of view ( we can only move forward), it is all free will. The real question is our relationship to time itself.



Some thoughts....

I would not say everything is not predestined, for that is like saying everything is pre-determined also implying that we don't have free will. Free will is not a point of view or perspective. Free will is having the a will apart from God's will that is capable of defying God's will.

If humans cannot make choices, if we do not have free will, then we would not have the ability to sin. For sin is defiance of God. Additionally, love is a choice. A person chooses to love. Without free will, we would not be able to love, as we could not make the choice of love.

Animals do not have free will. Because of this, animals do not have the moral law, and they do not sin. What animal has been accused of sin? They also cannot love. All animals are selfish, and none will sacrifice thier life in order to save another.

All of humanity, however, has been granted a choice. When Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden, they were given the ability (free will) to choose. God told them not to eat from the tree. God knew they would eat from the tree, but He did not force them.

Here is the difference, I believe, that many people miss entirely. They confuse predestination with foreknowledge. Adam and Eve were given a choice. Thier future was not pre-determined. God did not make them eat off the tree. God did not make Adam and Eve evil. Rather, it was thier own choice. They chose to sin. However, God knew in advance they would make this choice. God had foreknowlege of the whole scenario. Because of this, God had a plan in advance of how to address the situation. God did not predestine Adam and Eve's steps. God predestined the outcome to Adam and Eve's steps.

Adam and Eve was granted the choice to defy God will and sin against God. In order to give them this choice, God established a system whereby Adam and Eve could do such a thing. In this system, God limited us immense. One of the limiters in our existence is time.

Time is a limiter of knowledge. Humanity lives under a constraint of time which means our knowledge is limited to a single moment. We know the past only in memory. We don't know the future. All we really know as reality is the present. And so, our knowledge is extremely limited. God is not limited in knowledge. God can see everything, everywhere, at all times.

If Adam and Eve had known in advance what evil is, and what it does, do you think they would have eaten from the tree? They would have know in advance the horrors of life without God, and how evil brings about pain and death.

If they would have had this knowledge, thier choice of not eating the tree would have been based upon selfish reasons. They would have not eaten from the tree because they would have known it would hurt them.

Rather, God wanted Adam and Eve to trust in Him despite thier lack of knowledge. God wanted Adam and Eve to have faith. Adam and Eve did not know the full extent of the outcome they would face. And so, when God told them, "Do not eat of the tree," they should have trusted in God. They should have had faith and believed in God. However, they did trust in God. They trusted in themselves.

Because Adam and Eve trusted themselves more than God, it was the same as saying, "I am greater than God." When we don't trust in God, then we are trusting in our own abilities and instincts. We are saying, "I know better than God." This is blasphemy. Because of this act of sin, God had to cast Adam and Eve from presence. God had to rebuke them. God is life. And so, to be seperated from God is death.

Just some thoughts.....

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/20 9:41Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

My perspective on "free will" is that only Adam and Christ had free will in the highest sense. Adam used his totally free will to disobey and plunge mankind into slavery to sin and spiritual death.

As children of Adam, how much free will does a slave or a dead man have? We choose sin because we are slaves to it. Even when we choose good, if we do it apart from God, we are still condenmed, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Christ used His free will to obey, thereby breaking the curse of Adam. In Christ we are no longer slaves to sin.

Make sense, or am I just opening another can of worms?

 2005/12/20 13:03Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro blake

Quote:
I would not say everything is not predestined, for that is like saying everything is pre-determined also implying that we don't have free will. Free will is not a point of view or perspective. Free will is having the a will apart from God's will that is capable of defying God's will.



i don't believe that anyone can override the Lord's will or resist it.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/20 13:36Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
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 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
i don't believe that anyone can override the Lord's will or resist it.



Do you honestly believe that?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [u]not willing[/u] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Are all going to come to repentance?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/12/20 13:47Profile
IRONMAN
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 Re:

bro jimbob
i hadn't taken into concideration that the word says we were slaves to sin before coming to Christ...whoa this rabbit hole is really deep :-? :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/20 13:47Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Another thought... have you ever done something that was not God's will? If so did you override His will by making your own decision?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/12/20 13:48Profile
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 Re:

Bro PreachParsley
indeed i do. as the Lord lead me through that passage of scripture He showed me something. The Lord is longsuffering to us, who is the "us" being referred to here? the body of believers is it not? The context of that scripture is not for all men, but for all believers many of whom at the time (and now) are unbelievers, hence the need for us to go out into the world.These ones have been chosen before the foundation of the world.

you're right, not all will come to repentance but all those predestined to do so will certainly not perish.

bro PreachParsley, i think our perception of free will as it was taught to us is wrong and we need to get it right before the whole mystery of predestination is revealed to us. i have learnt so much in the last couple of days it's been most amazing...let us continue to seek the Lord that this mystery be made plain to us.AMEN


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/20 14:11Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Do you believe God chooses some to go to Hell? Or that He knows the end from the begining and knows who will "choose?"


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Josh Parsley

 2005/12/20 16:13Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro PreachParsley

Quote:
Do you believe God chooses some to go to Hell? Or that He knows the end from the begining and knows who will "choose?"



yes i do because the word says that the potter makes vessels of mercy and others of wrath. God knows the end from the beginning but how could it be as He knows it if He did not will it? bro at the end of the day we are vessels of mercy and that is the bottom line. understanding the mechanics of it is proving to be quite a challenge and it may not be that we will understand it on this side (maybe the Lord may rveal it, i'm not sure) but as vessels of mercy then we have work to do, sowing the seed of the gospel so that the other vessels of mercy which are still in darkness may be quickened.

God bless


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/20 18:09Profile





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