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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Judging Revivals

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CyberCarbon
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Judging Revivals

The problems I see with judging revivals is one I do not have the eyes of God, I can only see a very small portion of what happened and the effects.
I do not know the mind of God nor the state of the believer’s hearts involved.
As far as the effects on the community, if you look at Los Angeles some would claim the Azusa Street Revival NEVER happened.
Yet, that Spirit is still rippling through the world this day.
What we are really trying to do is agree on definitions, concepts, and results.
This is Gods business and the process of pursuing this will rob us of any chance of ever being involved in a real revival, because of our own unbelief, our own pride, and just the act of questioning is this real or not. God requires complete surrender, humble prayer and obedience NOT our approval or agreement.
How many revivals have started in the ecclesiastical mature churches, i.e. the Romans, the Greeks, or the Lutherans, Baptists, or even the AG’s lately. I think in most if someone was overcome with the Spirit the Ushers would try to quietly escort him or her out so they would not unset the rest of the fellowship. Man's judgments are one of the great barriers to real revival as I see it.
May I ask, what do the rest of you think?


_________________
David Michael Paul

 2005/12/20 7:13Profile
sj
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re: Judging Revivals

Agreed...The Lord pointed out to me that as much as we like to fault "the church system" God very often chooses that environment to pour out His Spirit. Lest we forget, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the Catholics, in fact i have a Grandma who is a Charaismatic Catholic and like it or not the woman knows God. I've seen her call on the Holy Spirit and ...well...He came.
That's more than i can say for most "pentecostal" preachers. (note: I am one so dont get mad)
Seems like if i go into a church and i can truly sense Love and the presence of God there, if God sees fit to show up who am i to scorn it?
I can disagree with practice but who can disagree with Presence?
Right doctrine(as important as that is) is NOT the deciding factor but rather hunger and desperation that determines if God will pour out His Spirit or not.
The Pharasiees missed Jesus over doctrine.
Doctrine is important to me but as a secondary to the heart, after all EVERYONE gets saved by an experience with God not by a doctrine.
But more on that later.

Christianity is an experience with doctrinal boundaries not a doctrine with experiental boundaties. And if a man knows God, God will fix his doctrine. But if a man clings ONLY to doctrine...not even God can help him.
(See Pharasiees Biblical and modern for proof)

I heard a preacher put it this way
"God is not very picky" then gestures to the audience and says "have you noticed the clientel?"

History proves that God uses people that we would NEVER choose.
Which of us would have chosen Jacob? A liar.
Or who would choose David. Adulterer and murderer.
What of Peter? Even AFTER pentecost still making MAJOR mistakes (doctrinal mind you) and leading the church into hypocricy.
There are people that are STILL offended by God chooing Paul. a former persecutor of Christians.

Best (or worse) of all lets just look in the mirror friends if that doesnt settle the question of what Gods willing to use nothing will.

About revival:
When revival comes It's messy it's beautiful it's well...a baby.

"When no oxen are stall stays clean, but there is much increase by the strength of the ox.
So get a shovel and keep on working"- David Hogan

Of course the Scripture summs it up best:
we have this treasure in earthen vessels so that the exellency may be shown to be of God and not of men.

 2005/12/20 9:15Profile
tacklebox
Member



Joined: 2005/10/8
Posts: 196
Roanoke Rapids, NC

 Re:

I cannot read the New Testament and still whole-heartedly agree with the previous two posts.

We are living in an age of great deception, and we should be very careful about what we label a movement of God or the prescence of God.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what these two have said, but I think Jesus is still very jealous of His bride, and she's flirting with all sorts of things nowadays.

I am beginning to think the whole idea of revival is being misunderstood. It seems some are quick to label anything that brings about changes on a large scale, usually centered around a church or individual, a revival. The great revivals of the past preached Christ and Him crucified, sin, hell, repentance, holiness - they didn't overemphasis manifestations of the Holy Spirit. People flock to these "revivals" because they think by going there they can finally experience "the real thing." It is another influence of our microwave, McDonalds culture where we want someone else to do all the work and we just want to pull into the drive-thru window, get our blessing, and then go back.
People used to flock to hear Finney and Whitfield, but not to get a "blessing." I've read accounts where they went out of curiosity (like Ben Franklin with Whitfield), while others went for the spectacle - but the preaching was so annointed, that they either would leave, try to silence the man, or get saved.
The emphasis on Brownsville may have started with repentance and salvation, but if these people have exchanged a genuine move of God for what they have now, I fear what God will turn them over to.

-Chris


_________________
Christopher Wright

 2005/12/20 10:16Profile









 Re:

The Bible is crystal clear that we as believers have the responsibility to weigh all things against scripture. This would most definately include so-called "revivals".

In many (most?) "revivals" that are reported today it doesnt take a rocket scientist to discover many false teachings and unbiblical activities. I know because I used to be very involved in many of these "revivals". I'm a veteran of the Brownsville "revival".

Many people today say "Look at all the people getting saved... it must be a movement of God!" Not so fast, says I.

Have people gotten saved at these "revivals"? Certainly I believe that some have truly been saved. Conversly tho, I believe that there have been many false conversions, and many that have been led astray. The Christ that is preached among the WOF "revivals" is certainly not the Christ of the Bible. Without a clear understanding of Christ and who He is, one can not be saved.

To say that we can not judge these "revivals" against scripture is to ignore the clear commands of scripture and is spiritually dangerous. To say "who am I that I think I can judge whether it is of God" is to display a false humility... and I say false humility because I've done that in the past with the deep desire to appear more spiritual.

The ends do NOT justify the means. If a "revival" is emmersed in false teachings and activities then it is not of God. Plain and simple. Can someone get saved in those "revivals"? Yes... but I believe true conversions are not as plentiful as people think.

I will agree that we can not judge other peoples hearts, intentions, etc. If someone tells me "I got saved at one of these "revivals"." then I will always believe them, and not judge their salvation. Thats not my place.

But we are certainly commanded in scripture to judge all teachings, doctrines and activities against scripture to see if these things be of God or not.

It cant be any more plain than that. Pretty simple.

For those who claim we can not judge these revivals I ask this: Why dont you accept Mormonism as truth? What about Hinduism? How about Fundamentalist Islam? Who are you to judge that those religions are not of God?

If you believe those are false religions then you have [b]JUDGED[/b].

Krispy

 2005/12/20 10:59
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

I know this may sound shocking coming from an AoG pentecostal minister but -- I don't believe that Azusa Street was a revival! For the simple reason that 3 years after it started -- the church was a horse stable again. It may have been a renewal of something lost to the church -- but not revival in the truest sense of the word as many define it. I think that what it became was a catalyist for change in the church to be open to the Holy Spirit again.

There is discussion on can we define a revival -- while I understand what you are saying. It seems to be very much the typical -- well its all God's timing and plan. No disagreement but I also believe revival is ever before us if one simply understands what it is and have faith that leads to action to recieve it.

Revival is ultimately giving life to the dead. It is a return of spiritual life where the church is seek God's kingdom and his righteousness and thus the world is touched. It is a return to the Holy Spirit moving on the church like he did in the beginning -- The truest test of this being Acts 2:37-47. There are a multitude characteristics that showed the church was alive and it is these same characteristics that happen and are seen when a church is revived. This is the test of genuine revival -- does it look and have the character of the origianl life the church had at the beginning.

Quote:
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
42 (1)They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and (2) to fellowship, (3)to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 (4) Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and (5)many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44 (6)And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
46 (7)Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and (8)breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 (9)praising God and (10)having favor with all the people (11) And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.



I count no less than 11 qualities ( I numbered them) this church had and if a church is missing even one of them it needs revival.

Perhaps it is better to think of it in terms of limited revival vs. full revival rather than revival vs. renewal. If some church gets say #2, 4 , 9 in a revival but not the rest -- it was a a limited revial and not a full one.

To say though that we do not have a standard which we have been given to judge revival is false -- The Word does give us many examples particularly here in Acts.

In the other post on Brownsville -- which ones did that church possess? I don't know completely I was not there, but I can tell you, not all of them nor did it maintain some of the ones it gained. Partial revival and not a lingering one. Almost like a temporary healing. Joy for a while and then the disease returns due ot neglect or flase assumptions.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/12/20 11:32Profile
CyberCarbon
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Re: Our minds are too small to judge God or His revival

While we debate, argue, discuss, and weigh is it or is it not a revival, God's Spirit anoints another with the simple faith of a child.


_________________
David Michael Paul

 2005/12/21 3:44Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Dear Sir Edward,

If Azuza Street turning back into a stable is the criteria to be used to decide whether revival happened, it doesn't say much in favor of the place of the Lord's birth. Also, I'm also told that the original churches in Asia are no longer in existence. Permanency can't be the rule that defines revival.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/21 4:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
While we debate, argue, discuss, and weigh is it or is it not a revival, God's Spirit anoints another with the simple faith of a child.



If you are against these types of discussions among brethren then why are you here? Why do you involve yourself?

I'm not being negative toward you... just curious why there are those who condemn the discussions here, yet they continue to involve themselves.

The Word says "Come, let us reason together" ... and I believe thats what happens here more often than not. And I for one think it's a good thing.

Krispy

 2005/12/21 6:04









 Re:

Quote:
If Azuza Street turning back into a stable is the criteria to be used to decide whether revival happened, it doesn't say much in favor of the place of the Lord's birth. Also, I'm also told that the original churches in Asia are no longer in existence. Permanency can't be the rule that defines revival.



I tend to agree with this... the Methodist church was born out of a great revival. Now look at the mess they're in.

Krispy

 2005/12/21 6:06
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

Why is it that people continue to make anologies that are not equatitive with what is being talked about. The Lord's birth is not a movement of beleivers dedicted to a cause like Asuza Street was -- it is a historical event in the life of Christ. The stable in that case was not for the purpose of changing the people of God into something greater, it was simply a place for his birth. Were talking revival here, not the lIfe of Christ. I cited the stable mearly as an small evidence anyway -- It is interesting that none of you so far have engaged the passage in Acts 2 I have used so far. Very interesting. Because if we use the Word -- Brownsville was a revival in the making but it failed -- that is all I am saying and I want to know why not becasue I want to bash it -- but to learn.

The pentecostal movement -- as wonderful as it is and was -- (Remember you are talking to a ordained Assemblies of God minister here) has its issues -- among them -- lack of stability of faith (I have seen it we follow any wind of doctrine as long as it is loud and has a lot of flash it must be good) , expereince surplanting the Word as authoritative and quite frankly a rejection of basic Christian holiness in a lot of cases. I am not going to just stick my head in the sand and just say everything is great. Revival can be defined and engaged. I personally only see very few moves of God as what we really need.

I am sorry there are at least 11 Biblical criteria to study if a revival is genuine -- probably more. The problem is everyone has an expereince and they arrogantly suppose that it is true -- because they can't be wrong. That kind of spiritual pride runs amok in the charismatic / pentecostal circles -- I know I rub shoulders with them all the time -- I am one. The biggest problem is that this movement of which I ma a part does not like to be criticised -- nor do they handle genuine criticism well -- they throw out the baby with the bathwater often - "This is of the Holy Spirit, don't judge it" is nothing more than a pale covering over spiritual pride and lack of correctability. Honesty assesment of spiritual condition and testing the spirits are also of God and his Word too.

Listen I love my movement -- but I also know that like any car engine you have ot treak it to get maximunm performance and if a part goes bad you need to identify it as so and change it. You don't just let it stay and not be able to run like it is supposed to or designed to.

Asuza Street was not the kind of revival it could have been -- it focused on one aspect that had been dormant fora long time -- lack of spiritual gifts in the church. It succeeded in restoring these to the church toady for which I am eternally grateful. But it needed to be open even more to become everything it should have became. it could have changed the moral face of America and even the world -- but in this is failed. Every revival stops -- I want to know why? But I can't do that if every time someone says there was a problem people say -- "don't talk about that you have no right to dimish what God did" Who is talking about God here? I am talking about his servants who do indeed fail him and do indeed cause problems. Revivals are not flawlessly perfect and to think they are just because you participated in them is nothing more that spiritual pride.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/12/21 14:03Profile





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