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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination and Free Will

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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Predestination and Free Will

brethren
i am led of the Lord to bring this up again. The Lord had me going through the epistles of bro Paul in Romans 9, he writes about the reckoning of Israel. He writes about how the children of the promise God made to abraham came from isaac and how rebecca's twins before they were born (and so had no chance to do any good or evil) were distinguished by God as one being hated and the other loved. This was all before the foundation of the world. This demonstration of the very sovereingty of God is quite troubling to us is it not? That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world. When bro Paul wrote to the Ephesians he said the same thing in chapt 1 vs 4-5, that before the world was made He chose us according to His good pleasure and purpose.

what then does this make of free will? i used to think that the Lord knew ahead of time who would choose Him and who wouldn't but it seems to me a rather creative way of getting around God's sovereingty and allowing for my concept of free will. there are probably a few who think as i did but today the Lord showed me that my concept of free will was wrong. we have free will in the confines of the Lord's sovereign will, we can't do anything that He hasn't decided we can do. concider the vessels of wrath the Lord has created. from before creation these ones had be determined by God to be vessels of wrath destined for destruction so they can't obtain salvation because it is outside the Lord's will.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 1:42Profile
ShirHashirim
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Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 16


 Re: Predestination and Free Will

free will and God's soverignty is a trip. what i have always thought (and i could be wrong) is that God works through our choices. He knows from before we were even made what mistakes we are going to make and things that we are going to chose, and through that in His wisdom He worked out a way that He still has His will done even in the choices that we make....i dont know if that makes sense. it made sense in my head...what about Ishmael? wasnt he out of God's will? could he be someone picked out for God's wrath because He knew from before time that Abe would be disobediant?

one time i was witnessing to a guy and he asked me 'if God loves someone so much but He knows before he is created that he is going to hell, why would He even create him?' it goes along with your:

Quote:
That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world.

i wish i knew the answer to that and if anyone does do tell :-)

one thing that i havent been able to get my mind off of ever since God shed light on it was just the fact that in His good pleasure and mercy, He chose me. My heart is so broken and humbled by this, that i am a vessle of mercy. Im greatful in my heart for everyone here at SI too who by the abundant mercies of the Lord was chosen to walk with Him and inherit His kingdom and be partakers of His Divine nature. It's so amazing i dont even have words for it. And on top of that, He has opened our eyes and entrusted us with His burden for His church! Praise the Lord, He is so good!!!


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Ruxandra

 2005/12/19 2:20Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, when i was outside earlier tonite i walked up to the door to this building and it said entrance, i opened the door and turned around and the same door said exit. anything that is ahead of you is whosoever will may come and as you go through life you will turn around to see Gods sovereign hand in everything.can a traffic light be red and green at the same time? it is always red and green at the same time. it depends upon which way your coming from. the key is IS GOD THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND OUR SALVATION OR IS man. jimp

 2005/12/19 3:07Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro ShirHashirim
in romans 9 in this portion answers the why to God showing mercy on whomever He chooses. He is God and He can do that.

[b]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

the Lord has shown me though that this showing of mercy to whomever He chooses is a mystery. it is written plainly in scripture how He operates but we need to seek Him through His Spirit for that mystery to be revealed that this enigmatic aspect of God be made plain. let us seek Him then.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 3:57Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Wow, My wife and I have been praying about this very topic for the past couple of weeks.

I grew up believing in Free-Will and I think I still do in some degree. However after reading Romans, predesination does seem to make more sense. I know a lot of people use it to say that God has chosen Israel (and I used to believe that), but I just don't see it that way anymore.

This verses keeps coming back to my mind:

Quote:

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

 2005/12/19 6:33Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jaysaved
well Israel is still the chosen people of God in that the promises made to Abraham still stand. the promise of that whole land (which is significantly bigger than what the state now occupies) forever and so on. so as gentiles we have no part really in that but we are reckoned righteous and given every Spiritual blessing in God through Christ. Some people believe that now the church is the new state of Israel but Paul says in the letter to the Romans in chapter 11 that this is not true. God has not abandoned His people but has caused them to stumble not so they fall but so that we gentiles can be grafted in to the tree and in so doing provoke them to jealousy so that they may be grafted back into the tree after the full number of gentiles is brought in.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 11:18Profile









 Re:


quote: 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jesus contradicts this, saying:

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Matt 12:25

What's the point of striving and prayer if you are destined for wrath? We all have complete free will within our gift of life. You think about and plan and go about your day in the way you please, don't you? How obvious does this need to be? No vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse is going to convince me otherwise.

Bubbaguy

 2005/12/19 13:00
sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re: Predestination and Free Will

If what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him.
As if God were proud or had some kind of Ego complex.

 2005/12/19 13:40Profile
sj
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

ShirHashirim,
As for why would God create someone knowing they will choose be damned?
The one line answer is this:
Because the chance of Love is worth the risk of loss.
The more than one line answer is this (as far as i've figured it out anyway):
Also how can creation appreciate the true beauty of light if there is no darkness?
God allowing those to be created who, reject every offer of goodness, and choose damnation
serves several purposes:
1. It proves to everyone that there really IS a choice and shows the concequences of both. If only rightous people were allowed to exist then our "Freedom of will" would be in name only. If we were not automotons we would at best be moral infants never having learned obedience by the things we suffer.

2. It shows and demonstrates the Goodness of God in that He doesnt just wipe out those who choose to reject Him. It give God an oppoutunity to demonstrate His mercy in a practical way. Again it Illustrates and proves His Chracter.

3. It shows that God is redemptive, even in that those who choose evil can be ultimately used for something Good. Only a master artist can make a mistake into a work of art. Even in the destruction of the wicked poetry is found. It's an all Powerful God who can make even Judgment beautiful.

4.Thus those who reject Him still play a role. God clearly places the choice before us to be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. We all the time know our children make the wrong decisions but to deny them the chance to make the right ones would not be love...even if we know what they will choose.
Remember, not one person in Hell will protest being there but will cry in anguish over their own folly. If those in Hell dont think God is unjust then shouldnt we, here on earth have the same opinoin?

 2005/12/19 13:42Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
quote 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jesus contradicts this, saying:

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Matt 12:25

What's the point of striving and prayer if you are destined for wrath? We all have complete free will within our gift of life. You think about and plan and go about your day in the way you please, don't you? How obvious does this need to be? No vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse is going to convince me otherwise.



bubbyguy in all due respect, the vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse you are referring to is Romans 9:21.

If God choses to make some people his objects of wrath, that is his decision and his right to do that. Take a look at Pharaoh in Exodus. Paul says in Romans 9:17-18 - "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

I am not completely abandoning the "free will" doctrine but I have to make it line up with the word of God and Romans (to me) clearly teaches that God predestines some people for destruction and some for mercy.

The question was asked, "Why then should we witness?" Because the Bible says that we should. God has used us to be ambassadors for the gospel and it is our job to spread the good news.

John 6:44 says "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

John 3:16 says, "whosoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have eternal life".

What must we do to be saved? Believe that Jesus is Lord. But how does a person come to Jesus? God draws him/her. Is it possible to believe that God draws some and not others?

I am still trying to figure this out myself. I am leaning more towards predestination but I grew up on "free will" so I still lean in that direction as well.

 2005/12/19 14:43Profile





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