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Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

Here's my take on predestination...from an analogy I ran across. Let's look at the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ.

I think this sums up my view on predestination/election.


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Shelly

 2004/1/8 23:20Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: "desire"

See below message which contains a sentence on desiring to be elect.

I'm not going to go too far with this because I need to chew on it a little more, but it sure is interesting that desiring is what allows one to become saved. Not that it isn't involved, but the gifting of God surely precedes it. Imagine the world where the person who aces an exam is the one who desires it rather than the one to whom God has given the gift of superior intellect and the desire to make the most of it. What we in fact see in this world is that desire only takes us to our limits. Our limits are set by other things. Desiring to outrun Olympic athletes in the 1600m isn't enough. One must have the gift followed by much training. My will only takes me places that lie within my boundaries.

It is a weak salvation that sees man simply getting on a boat to heaven when the Bible goes on at length about salvation being a complete resurrection from the dead. It also falls apart badly when you conider all the people who desire this at one moment and then are plucked away or scorched (unless you add a sentence about them jumping out or something?) or people who desire it their whole life within a cult. Obviously the cult case shows that desire must be accompanied by Truth.

Here's my modification to the analogy. In order to dwell in the House of the Lord for eternity we must be on the boat to heaven. The problem is that the boat cannot contain fallen flesh. No man can enter but Jesus mercifully reaches out to people at the appointed times and gives them the breath of spiritual life and pulls that spirit into the boat. This is still a terrible analogy, but it is significantly improved.

No leader in the history of the Bride of Christ ever believed that men can jump on a boat to heaven. It violates the Scripture entirely. I fear that it is a damning heresy at work that tells people to "make a decision" and "walk down the aisle" without preaching God's wrath and repentance to them first. By robbing people of the chance to count the cost we give false assurance to the lost. Jesus pushed away people who seemed to seek Him when He saw that they were not 100% convinced of their wretchedness and need for salvation. How many times have you seen someone brought to complete brokenness from a teaching of the law? How many times have you seen those people recognize their need for salvation and take the Kingdom by violence? These are those who will persevere to the end and become disciples indeed. These are the people saved unto good works. It isn't good enough to find out what people feel that they need and tell them that God can give it. "If you accept Jesus today your life will be better." When the elect of God are drawn they will walk down the aisle after being promised hardship and struggles. They will thank God as they are martyred. The church is in trouble because it has traded the glory of Christ for the glory of numerical success and watered down humanism.

If there is one thing I've learned from this website it is that the preaching of 50 years ago makes most preaching of today look pretty sad. I have left my Church-Growth church and have had to look all over the city for a single place that preaches boldly the Word of God. I found one in a city that has contains hundreds of churches. It really hurts me that this is the case.

It would be wonderful if God would move and raise up preachers like Tozer all over this country.

 2004/1/9 11:12Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

In reference to the "ship on the way to heaven" analogy, can a passenger jump off the ship.

The question is could he jump off and no longer be on the "ship on the way to heaven" after he was a passenger.

Maybe the "ship on the way to heaven" is a poor analogy or provides an answer to another question.

Always lots to consider and bring before the Lord.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/1/9 13:25Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Adam jumped ship.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/9 13:51Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

This analogy is a VERY simple look at Predestination and Election. I did not intend it to be for salvation, regeneration, sanctification, etc. It basically states in my opinion, that on the topic of predestination/election that we were chosen as a whole (the church), yet have the individual will to choose to serve our Lord and Master. Once again the analogy was not to serve as an end all be all for salvation and etc. BTW, desire is not enough..the analogy did cover a living faith, meaning a day to day belief in Jesus Christ, and not just believe but living the Word, not just reading it or knowing it.


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:03Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

Let me explain myself perhaps a little more clearly.
ELECTION--God's choice of those who believe in Christ is an important doctrine to the apostle Paul (Rom 8:29-33, 9:6-26, 11:5,28; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13; Titus 1:1). Election refers to God's choice in Christ of a people in order that they should be holy and blameless in his sight. Paul sees election as expressing God's love as God receives, as His own, all who receive His Son, Jesus. I feel that the doctrine of election involves these following truths: ( I may split up over several posts.)


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:12Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

1. Election is Christocentric ie, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen". Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect. NO ONE is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
If the analogy were carefully read, you would see that if one does not maintain that union with Christ, he/she is no longer part of the elect and have abandoned ship.
2. Election is "in Him...through His blood" (Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins(Act 20:28, Rom 3:24-26).


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:17Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

3. Election in Christ is primarily corporate, that is the election of a people. The elect are called "the body of Christ", "My church","A people belonging to God" and the "bride" of Christ. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church. This was true already of Israel in the OT.
4. The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remain conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with Him. Paul demonstrates this as follows:
a.) God's eternal purpose for the church is that we should "be holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgivness of sins, and to the church's sanctification and holiness. God's elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (Rom 8:14; Gal 5:16-25). Paul repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (Eph 2:10, 3:14-19, 4:1-3,13-24; 5:1-18.)
b.)Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will "present her to Himself as a radiant church...holy and blameless (Eph 5:27).
c.) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us "holy and blameless in His sight" only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this to us clearly: Christ will "present you holy in His sight without blemish...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (Col 1:22-23).


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:28Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

5. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Titus 2:11)and becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ. At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Col 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election.


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:31Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

PREDESTINATION--Predestination means "to decide beforhand" and applies to God's purposes comprehended in election. Election is God's choice "in Christ" of a people (the true church) for Himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God's people (all genuine believers in Christ).
1.) God predestines his elect to be : called (Rom 8:30); justified (Rom 3:24; 8:30); glorified (Rom 8:30); conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29); holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); adopted as God's children (Eph 1:5); redeemed (Eph 1:7); recipients of an inheritance(Eph 1:14); for the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12; 1Pet 2:9);recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14) and created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
2.) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ(the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your time.

Yours in Christ,

Shelly


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Shelly

 2004/1/9 16:37Profile





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