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Clutch
Member



Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

" For ye see your calling brethern, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise: and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not,to bring to nought things that are:That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That according as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord". I Corinthians 1:26-31

So Ron, I guess it's OK that some of YA'LL odd balls got in. And your lot is certainly welcome at my church anytime. Quota or not.

Another thing; I noticed that for a FORIEGNER, you have an excellent grasp of the "English" language. :-D Perhaps you could define for me, the word "whosoever", as in " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 10:13; " And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER will let him drink of the water of life freely". You know how us Yanks are , we ALMOST invented the language, but from misuse our understanding has declined somewhat. Just recently we had a President, that did not know what the word "IS" meant. So brother perhaps you could give us a somewhat definative statement on this potentially enlightening word . :-D

I'm considering doing with the term Carlminiast, something similar to what Jeff Foxworthy did with the term Redneck, as in : " You MIGHT be a Redneck if....." :-D
Clutch


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Howard McNeill

 2003/12/2 21:31Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: whosoever

Clutch's quote: Perhaps you could define for me, the word "whosoever", as in " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 10:13; ...perhaps you could give us a somewhat definative statement on this potentially enlightening word

perhaps, somewhat, potentially?? I used to be very uncertain about things but now I'm much more decisive, ...I think. ;-)

whosoever, whomsoever (much loved of UK lawyers in the past) are old forms of 'whoever' and in our kind of English it simply means "the person who..." So you have to read the rest of the sentance to understand it.

For your Romans reference, Young's Literal Translation has "for every one—whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved".

Rev 22:17 is typically John! He loves participles. e.g. "whosoever believeth" John 3:16 is literally "the believing one". (for the techies, it is a present participle preceded by the definite article) He is focused on states rather than events. It shows the character of the person rather than his action. This would read "And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing—let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting—let him come; and he who is willing—let him take the water of life freely."

To catch the sense of the character you could translate these "the believer" "the hearer" "the thirster" "the willer". In the way you might have someone who would drive a bus but would not necessarily be a 'bus driver' so you might have someone who has believed but is not a 'believer'. It is not a single act but a continuing state which characterises the person. According to John 3:16 the promise is not to someone who has believed but to someone who is a believer.

Bet you wish you hadn't asked! ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/3 5:34Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

Ron,

:-D !
Clutch
;-)


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Howard McNeill

 2003/12/3 23:23Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

The foundation of on which Calvinism stands is that of the teaching of irresistible grace. Man is depraved, I agree. But with all other aspects of this doctrine it all stands or falls on the teaching of irresistible grace. Therefore, let us see how this teaching holds up to the word of God.

First, the teaching that man cannot resist God's grace means in all reality that man is saved by grace only. There are no other precepts which accompany this thought. Grace alone, stands as the foundation of Calvinistic belief. The word of God teaches, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into His grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2

However, Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit teaches that man is saved by grace through faith. We have access by faith into His grace. All grace comes though our relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." The qualifying nature of those who are called, are those that love God. Throughout the entire Scriptures there are two kinds of people. Those who remain and grow in the nature of satan, and those who are redeemed by the work of Jesus Christ. Jesus clearly distinguishes who those are that are His. It is those who obey Him. So again in Romans 8, those who love God obey Him.

Those who believe in Jesus, obey Him. Faith is always expressed through the testimony of the work that is evident in the life of one who believes. You become what you believe. Therefore, those who hear His voice and obeys will overtime, be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. The work of Jesus Christ is the only thing that is predestined in God's revelation to us. When we say we are predestined, we run the risk of remaining a lover of self. When we say that the work of Jesus is predestined, then we look to Him who is the author and finisher of our faith.

A. W. Tozer, writes, "Only a faith that moves the life can save the soul."

So, those who teach a doctrine of grace without understanding the need for us to obey God's voice, teach a doctrine that is not according to the word of God.

One more thought, the first man Adam lost what Jesus Christ came to restore. Did Adam have salvation before He fell?

As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/4 12:33Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
So, those who teach a doctrine of grace without understanding the need for us to obey God's voice, teach a doctrine that is not according to the word of God.


AMEN! that's a great biblical truth.

[b]Jeremiah 7:23 (niv)[/b] - but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you.

Quote:
One more thought, the first man Adam lost what Jesus Christ came to restore. Did Adam have salvation before He fell?



[b]Genesis 3:22 (niv)[/b] - And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

[b]Revelation 2:7 (niv)[/b] - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Some have said that Jesus is the tree of life, I am not disagreeing with that. But with these two verses you can see that Adam never ate from that tree, and the Church of Ephesus was not going to eat of it until they reached paradise. There are some more verses on this, I will dig away.. :-D


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/12/4 17:37Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: grace and merit

Jeff wrote: In Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." The qualifying nature of those who are called, are those that love God.
So, those who teach a doctrine of grace without understanding the need for us to obey God's voice, teach a doctrine that is not according to the word of God.

Hi Jeff
I don't regard myself as a Calvinist but we need to tread carefully here. According to the first quote above you are really saying that 'our love is a pre-condition of grace'. The Calvinist would say that 'love is the consequence of grace and not its necessary condition'. If faith is a 'response' (and I strongly believe it is) it must indicate that God initiated something to which I can respond and that initiation can only have been grace. If grace is dependent on some pre-condition in me it is no longer grace. It would mean that God had responded to some merit in me, but 'in me' there is no merit.

However, grace is not only 'unmerited love' it is also 'enabling love'; it makes possible that which could not have been possible without it. So God speaks in enabling grace and awaits my response.

The only qualification I brought to this was my 'sinner-hood' in that Jesus came into the world to save 'sinners' and did not come to call the righteous. In this I was able to say 'I qualify'and I could only say that because God revealed it to me.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose is not saying that God's call is dependent upon my love. It is saying that we know that all things work together for good to those
i) who love God
ii) who are the called according to His purpose

Neither i) nor ii) is dependent upon the other, neither are they alternatives, it is simply saying that the kind of people we are talking about (the ones for whom all things work together for good) love God and are the called according to His purpose


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/4 17:53Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

JeffMarshalek wrote: "One more thought, the first man Adam lost what Jesus Christ came to restore. Did Adam have salvation before He fell?"

Reply: Well, I kind of see that as saying, "Does a man need saved from a pit before or after he has fallen into it?"

Adam didn't have salvation before the fall because he didn't need it. He was positionaly right with God and in perfect communion. This was destroyed by his disobedience which only God could restore through Christ.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/12/5 2:02Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

This is a new forum for me. I have never used the internet to communicate what God has worked in me. I say this because the questions I ask are meant to direct thought.

I agree with Hulsey. Genesis 1:31, "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good..." There is no question in my mind which could ever doubt what God said about His creation. Everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good!


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/5 10:53Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Philologos,

Thankyou for making clear, what I often times do not succeed in communicating my thoughts clearly. I do not believe Calvin or Armenian(?). I follow Jesus Christ and fail most of the time. Yet He is faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

When I first committed my life to the Lord 7 years ago, (I am 47 now), I began to read the Bible. I had no exposure to the Holy Scriptures before then. As I read, Romans chapter 3, I hated what was taught. I thought at that point in my walk with Christ, that there had to be something good in me that would cause me to reach out to God. For three years I sat under the teaching of Calvin. As I read the Word, and listened to the teaching of Calvin, in my heart a bitter feeling grew. Now I know it was the Holy Spirit and His gift of decernment. I left the church, and found a young pastor of 28 years old. The second or third week of my relation with my new pastor, of course, brought the bitterness in my heart up in full view of that young man. My bitterness did not exist because Calvin was wrong in his teaching of irresistible grace, it was because I was denying the truth of Romans 3. That young pastor said the most profound words that have been spoken by a man to me thus far. He said, "The Bible says it, so I believe it." That day those words penetrated my soul. I decided to give up. I now love Romans 3. It has opened to me a door, that door being my Savior. The more I follow Jesus, the more I see how depraved my flesh is. He is killing me softly with His word. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/5 11:20Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44. Jesus stated a precept in 14 words what took Paul 8 chapters to teach in Romans 1-8. Chapter 3 teaches that man is lost, depraved, and dead spiritually. Chapter 4 reveals the only way of restoration, that is by faith. Chapter 5 is pivotal. Paul points us to Christ. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, MUCH MORE, having been reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE." Romans 5:10. Chapter 6 defines what God requires of man. Man must die to self. Chapter 7 gives man a view of himself when he tries to live according to the law of God, while relying on the wisdom and strength of his flesh. And chapter 8, Paul gives the solution to overcoming the flesh and the righteous requirements of God's law. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." Romans 8:14

Jesus is our High Priest and King who is continually directing the Holy Spirit to give what is His to us. He is the Seed of the Woman, the Jerusalem above. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will OF THE FLESH, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12-13

Chapter 1 of Romans teaches that God calls everyone. But after a time of continual rejection to His call, "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in there lusts of their heart..." Romans 1:24

I have found that this is true, even within this site. Let me explain. In the United States, 85% of those who committed their lives to Christ did it between the ages of 4-14. Also 85% of those who do not commit to Christ by the age of 14 never do. On this very website in the polling of this same issue, the numbers are true. Check it out.

You see a child like faith opens the door for our Savior. God calls all, but few are chosen. As we age in satan's world we become more hardened to the call of God. Just like Paris Reidhead(?) said in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt," He found out that the men he went to save, LOVED THEIR SIN.

in the love of Jesus...


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/5 12:04Profile





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