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Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Predestination

I liked a comment that I recently heard Ron Bailey make in one of his taped sermons. He said something to the effect that " I was predestined to be an Arminian". If that was a misquote; I apologize, and I'll take credit for saying it! :-D
Clutch :-P


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Howard McNeill

 2003/11/29 20:32Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re: Predestination

Quote:
"I was predestined to be an Arminian".


I personally try to stay away from classifying my belief system under theological labels. Just because I believe in some parts of 'Total depravity' doesn't make me have to agree with all of calvinism. I agree with much of what John Wesley says, he makes a great balance between these two trains of thought (arminism and calvinsim).

I very much agree also with this statement:
"I do not believe in any conception of sovereignty that nullifies man's responsibility."
-Duncan Campbell


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/30 20:06Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

I agree, and I think that was what Ron was saying in a left handed way.
Clutch ;-)


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Howard McNeill

 2003/11/30 20:35Profile
openairboy
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Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

And God hated Esau, so he was predestined to be hated by God. God ordained all of the days of David before one them came to pass. Judas was predestined to forsake the Savior and fall away. Peter was predestined to deny the Savior three times. God predestined Jesus to be forsaken by sinful men, and they will be called to account for the shedding of innocent blood. YHWH predestined Pharaoh's heart to be hardened. God has predestined men to turn the grace of God into sensuality.

What can we say to all of this?

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

Amen.

 2003/11/30 23:16Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Predestination

Hi Clutch
Now look at the trouble you'll get me into!

It was a teasing, throw away question
"Was I predestined to be a Arminian?" Actually, I'm not an Arminian either; they were far too Calivinistic for my tastes! :-D

Now I'm in even more trouble!


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/1 4:31Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

HI OAB
your quote "And God hated Esau, so he was predestined to be hated by God"

Esau had been in his grave for about 1200 years before God said this. [Malachi 1:2] This is not a reference to a 'he' but to a 'they'. It is not Esau the man who is in the frame but Esau the people. Something said so long after the events can hardly be labelled 'predestination'. This is a prophetic (God's eye view) resume of history not a prediction nor a predestinating decree.

My own view of things was beautifully expressed by an English bishop.

"God's foreknowledge sees everything and forces nothing. It leaves the liberty of the human will untouched. Whatever is foretold by God will be done by man; but nothing will be done by man because it is foretold by God."
Christopher Wordsworth Intro to the Revelation.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/1 4:38Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: Esau

HORSEFEATHERS and ROMANS 9

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


I agree that we "experience" choice and that the Bible appeals to our will, but that does not negate the fact that the Sovereign God elects. All of us that have had a sudden desire to be converted in the midst of a totally depreaved life understand that the desire didn't originate with us - God put it there. Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."

 2003/12/1 10:33Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
All of us that have had a sudden desire to be converted in the midst of a totally depreaved life understand that the desire didn't originate with us - God put it there.


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Quote:
Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."

Amen!


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Mike Balog

 2003/12/1 10:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Gregs response "Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."

Amen!

Amen, from me too. But God's initiative and enabling grace is not the same as predetermination. Nor is foreknowledge the same as predetermination. I may foreknow that my house is going to be burgled but that doesn't mean I have predetermined the burglary.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/1 12:22Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Ummm, think that was me (mike/crsschk) responding to the quote from 'nobody' (sounds kinda strange to say that!)
But, I also liked Greg's response from Duncan Cambell in this regards.


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Mike Balog

 2003/12/1 12:29Profile





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