This was something someone had posted on another thread about the same topic. Test all things and judge them rightly to make sure they're of God. Jesus will build his church on the revelation of the Christ directly from God and not just flesh and blood.
On Wednesday, a brother told me "Jesus is not God." After having told him he was a heretic if he went around teaching that, I barely responded to all his opposing arguments, and just asked God to give me a word to share with him.
I asked him if on that day in heaven when myself and the rest of the saints were worshipping the Lamb, would he be there worshipping the Lamb too? And if so, would he worship something other than God (idolatry)?
He now believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God (in three persons).
| 2005/12/5 21:34||Profile|
I would like to add a few verses to those you posted.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, [u]then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.[/u]
| 2005/12/5 23:20||Profile|
Hi Paula and Smokey,
i am also struggling with the idea of the trinity. How can one sit on the right hand side of oneself? Christ died and was raised by the Father.Did he give up his divine nature and office for mankind? This thought is awesome.Is that the price required for a soul? Immortality for immortality?
The KJV has been my life for 37 yrs..i cannot read any other version.nuff said.
| 2005/12/7 14:56||Profile|
This topic has been handled in depth recently under the thread [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7893&forum=36]Godhead.[/url] It is essential to have a right understanding of God as a Trinity as has been affirmed throughout all of church history. As I have said in the past, it is an essential doctrine and not one that should be thought of as "up-for-grabs" as other non-essential doctrines. It is a fundamental doctrine that is foundational to being an Orthodox Christian.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2005/12/7 15:08||Profile|
| Re: Help! Jesus is the Son. Jesus isn't God|
Dear Paula and others,
If you perform a search on the trinity and read over the myriads of articles and debates, you will discover this is probably the most controversial topic in all Christian doctrine. So many religions (false and true) have developed from the different perspectives on this single subject of whether Jesus was in fact God or not. People in history have been murdered over this topic. Many many perspectives and doctrines have arisen.
The Catholic Church has established an orthodox doctrine on this subject called the Blessed Trinity. You can read all about this in the Catholic Encyclopedia found here: [url=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm]Blessed Trinity[/url]
It is rather confusing at times and difficult to read. Of all the things I have read, the most comprehensive and easy to understand that covers about everything you could possibly want to know is found on Wikipedia, here: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity]Trinity[/url]
Personally, I have been on both sides of this debate. I once was a JW that did not believe Jesus was God. After I was saved, I prayed about this topic, telling Christ I could never believe such a thing. However, He changed my heart. Now, I believe it to such an immense depth, I would be willing to die defending it. Jesus is God and Lord. Even better, He is my God and Lord. He is my personal Savior and God, and He owns me.
When speaking with someone about this topic, I have found the best approach is always with love. No one ever listens when a person is arrogant and offensive. Additionally, there is no way to force it on anyone. This is completely a matter of faith.
This topic is such a huge controversy because it is the great mystery of our faith as Christians. How could Jesus who was born a man, who took our sins and died, be God? How could Jesus be both an offspring and Lord of King David?
Many people have tried to answer this question with logic and reasoning, but truly, it cannot be rationalized. This is a matter of faith. We must believe it. We must believe in Jesus.
When I meet people that don't know this truth, my first reaction is to encourage them to ask Jesus. Who better to ask than Jesus? I tell them it is a matter of faith. I could show them scripture to prove it, but it doesn't matter. They won't believe unless Jesus reveals this truth to them. And so, I always direct them to the source. Ask Jesus.
I also point out that the whole reason the Pharisees sentenced Jesus to death was because He claimed to be God. They accused Him of blasphemy, which is making Himself to be God. At the trial, they confronted Him about this. How did Jesus respond? He said, "I am."
John 10:33 (NASB)
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
Luke 22:63-71 (NASB)
63 Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking Him and beating Him, and they blindfolded Him and were asking Him, saying, "Prophesy, who is the one who hit You?" 65 And they were saying many other things against Him, blaspheming. 66 When it was day, the Council of elders of the people assembled, both chief priests and scribes, and they led Him away to their council chamber, saying, 67 "If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will not believe; 68 and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69 "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am." 71 Then they said, "What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth."
The Pharisees didn't believe that Jesus was the Christ which meant He was the Messiah. They wanted proof that He was God. And so, they killed Him. While hanging on the cross, they said this:
Matthew 27:42 (NASB)
"He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him." (also Mark 15:31, Luke 23:35)
Many people of our modern time become confused by the statement where Jesus is called "God's Son." What is a son? What does that mean? Many theories have formed. Some people believe that it means Jesus was created by God. Others believe that Jesus is an angel. Others believe Jesus is another God who is less than the father. Other believe Jesus is a God, but not the God. These are all misinterpretations.
The Pharisees knew what Jesus was really saying. They knew that Jesus was claiming to be the one and only God. By being called the son of God, this meant that Jesus was equal with God in all ways. A son shared in everything the Father owns including all authority. The Pharisees also knew that there was only one God. They knew the Messiah would be thier King who would save them. Only God could do such a thing. Only God could forgive sins, and yet Jesus went around forgiving people's sins. And so, when Jesus said He was the Son of God, the Pharisees knew that Jesus was claiming to be God. However, they didn't believe in Jesus.
The apostle Thomas didn't believe at first, but when Jesus was resurrected, he declared the truth.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, will not believe."
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
If you were to ask me how it is possible that Jesus is God, I could not answer you. It defies logic. How could God die? How could God sit at the right hand of God? How could God who is Holy become sin? How could God become a man? How can Jesus and God be one?
I can't answer these questions. The doctrine of the Trinity attempts to answer these questions. It gives a logical explanation of how this great mystery could be possible.
However, what is most important is not that you have head knowledge or that it makes sense to you. Jesus does not live in our heads. Jesus lives in our hearts. What is most important is that we believe in Jesus with all of our heart.
I hope this helps, and I pray the Lord will bless you with the exact words to say when talking to your friend. I will also pray for your friend that Jesus may reveal the truth to him. Only Jesus can truly change people.
| 2005/12/7 16:01||Profile|
However, more liberal viewpoints don't, and the evidence to support a "published" letter earlier than AD 150ish is unfortunately often taken as skeptic-worthy.
Well, the John Rylands papyrus manuscript dates to 130AD so that argument is pretty much bunk, since we know it was a manuscript, NOT an original. This manuscript is pretty much solid in itself to put John back into the first century.
Anyway, back to the task at hand, there is absolutely NO question that Jesus is YHWH. One need only to read John 1:1 alongside Rev. 19:13 to prove once and for all that Jesus is God. Or one of my favorites, Zechariah 12:10 (for all you KJVers out there, I will put it in language you can understand ;-) )"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." For whom will Jerusalem mourn? Him who they pierced. Whom did they pierce? Me. Who is me? I. Who is I? The YHWH. Now...fast forward 550 years. Who was the only son Jerusalem pierced and later mourned? None other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I could go on for days, but lets suffice it to say that the Old Testament has ample evidence to support Christ as YHWH and other truths of the Trinity, so the "disputed" New Testament doesn't even need to be addressed, if you wish (even thought it is even more reliable based on textual evidence than the OT). For more resources, http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htm
May the LORD reveal His truth to us all,
| 2005/12/7 17:15||Profile|
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Amen Blake, Amen.
Daniel van de Laar
| 2005/12/7 17:36||Profile|
Quote:We have discussed this to death elsewhere. 'distinction' does not mean 'separation'. What are you going to do with the scripture "and the Word was God'?
I believe that scripture is very clear of a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
| 2005/12/8 5:08||Profile|
I'd also recommend part III of Mere Christianity where CS Lewis talks on the nature of God and the Trinity. Really good.
BTW, when you talked to your friend about the verses you cite in your post, what do they say? I like some of the others think the Trinity is indespensable to the gospel.
| 2005/12/8 18:37||Profile|