Onfire, quite an awesome message you wrote there, You know I don't personally have as much a problem with a Pastor preaching prosperity , than I do with one needing to live in a 5 million dollar home, I just have never ever experienced anyone that when they come into a lot of money it has not changed them for the worse, and I don't mean they necessarily jumped off the deep end they just were not as humble as they were before. Bottom line is I just don't think Gods idea of a great Pastor is for one to be a multi millionaire because you would have to be an awful unique person not to let the almighty dollar go to your head some. You know when I was growing up in the 50's our Church provided the pastor with a home as long as he was the pastor at that church what happened to that idea? I just don't know about all this but I do know God is still in control and he can and will do what he needs to do to get all this straightened out no doubt.
| 2005/12/6 9:48||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Sheep without a Sheppard|
It is only slightly more interesting that the attention is given to the preacher\teacher than to the subjects underneath them, those being led astray. That the discussions tend towards the maligning of character, the scriptural warrant of whether such a thing as extravagance and fleecing the flock is a consideration... While the sheep are left out in the cold or led to the slaughter. The ramifications pushed aside, the fear of men or a preponderance of pride. It just seems to be missing the whole point and not addressing the issue.
[i]And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.[/i] Joh 2:13-17
[i]And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. And when even was come, he went out of the city.
And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.[/i]
| 2005/12/6 10:05||Profile|
Mr. Bill ~> I agree with you that people coming into a lot of money does indeed change people. What I see is the problem is that people start changing that way even before the money starts increasing. Pride is something that every person needs to be watchful of if they are in any kind of leadership role in the Church.
People get stuck on money as being a problem but there are so many other ways that man lusts for success in the eyes of others. It's a problem because it's sure not the humble charachter that Christ displayed and wants us to have in following Him.
Personally, I believe that money is one area. The need to be elevated to a position before man is a big problem that people have. In my view they are glorifying themselves and glorifying their own works more than God. Without even money being involved it seems that many like to have that status above others, and they refer it as their "calling." When Christ calls someone to service He doesn't raise them above others. We're all equals in the Kingdom. Even those of spiritually maturity are no better than the new born believer.
If all who choose to follow Christ are called to being vessels for Him to minister through us than why should only some be "blessed" financially more so than others.
As a side note, the most effective pastoring that I have experienced in my life has come from people who are not elevated in any congregation to any level of status or title. They were humble servants of God who were willing to deliver what they believed to be a message and be used by God to help meet my spiritual needs.
So what I'm saying is that it isn't just money that drives people to change. It's that lust for power/control over others in the body of Christ. Those ones that get a million dollar home have become very successful at working the crowds. The sad part is that your local small town congregational preacher must work the crowds as well to pay the bills for the church building fund as well as his/her salary and that of others. I believe that there are many who are sincere in their desire to spread the gospel, but unfortunately they get swept up by the business that is involved in the institutionalization of the Church. Before long spiritual matters are less important than increasing numbers, status and maintaining a successful organization.
It's very easy when you are placed on a pedestal whether that be to preach or lead in any other function, to be a worship leader. People are looking at you.
For some people that adulation feeds something dangerous. For the truly spiritual minded follower when they see people lifting them up in any form of status the humbleness in them kicks in and they feel the need to step away. We humbly step away so that people see only Christ and not us.
| 2005/12/6 10:35||Profile|
When it comes to God's servants, even the apostles were very much concerned with who was and who was not a servant of God. Paul is said to have delivered some over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, there are several times that he says that people should be cast out of the church until they repented. (1 Corinthian 5 comes to mind). Love without discipline is not corrective. Jude and Peter I think have an answer for us in how to deal with these things. I believe that based on Jude and 1st Peter we should call people what they are -- in error (note you will take flak for standing for the truth)and that we ourselves should not get so interested in correction that we feel the need to address it all the time. Correction is not a ministry -- it is part of it, but not one in and of itself.
I believe that Matthew 18:15-18 should be followed if possible but if not Peter and Jude did warn the people about these 'wells without water' for the people's sake. Silence can be deadly. I offer the following advice to those that see error and want to address it.
1) Make sure you are right. Check what the stated person said or get the facts about the event from reliable sources and then check the Word and double check the Word to see if you are right.
2) Pray -- that you spirit will be right and that you will be guided by the Spirit. That you purpose will to correct and not be right. Pray until the Spirit directs you to Go
3) Keep your rebuke Biblical -- your own opinions do not matter. Use the Bible properly, don't read in your own meaning, but use the Bible.
4) Let it go when it is time to let it go. Once the matter is dealt with and you have followed Matthew 18 as much as possible -- if the person does not see the problem -- let them go. You have done all you can. Let the Word and the Spirit work.
| 2005/12/6 10:40||Profile|
| Re: Popular TV preachers|
martymill wrote:I'm personnally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Should we not be nervous to judge others less the wrath of God fall on us?
My reply is Mike's reply:
crsschk wrote :Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin. There are lives being affected by all this, attempting to dislodge one from something of this sort is very difficult ...
The bible has instances of where Paul EXPOSED certain people BY NAME in the scriptures.
IRONMAN wrote :Christ wouldn't have horded money for Himself
Have we forgoten that Jesus has a women who MANAGED HIS MONEY? Jesus was paid by women.
And to forget that Paul was added by the church of Philipi?
It's very biblical to be paided to do the work of the Lord, study David, Solomon, Samuel, the Prophets, apostles. Levities, singers and builders of the temple. I used to take the stance 'dont take any money' but it's truly evident for Ministers of the Gospel to receive money. But not to beg for millions of dollars, until your work truly requires it.
I believe we all believe this when it comes to money.
dhcolesj wrote :I believe a pastor should get enough money to live and pay bills just like everyone else, and if God gives extra blessings, GREAT! However, I don't believe any minister of God should be flashing gold rings, fancy cars and expensive clothes to show off their income.
This is a question of being 'beyond reproach'. Or 'beyond questioning'.
If we are questioning someone's character, then we should question if they are really in the faith. Why? YOU KNOW A TREE BY IT's FRUIT.
A good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad fruit. Which one are you? Which one are they? the post before me is a great way to ask that (by Sir_Edward)
Those who say 'you can't judge' um, well then I guess Jesus had no right turning over those tables
Those who this causes to stumble (fustration, anger, etc), I ask that you just simple lift EVERY NAME and ministry involved with 'questionable' characteristics.
As I posted in the other thread (that orginally started all this)
"May this stur up the intercessor within us"
(Intercessor is a person who prays for others)
| 2005/12/6 12:17|
Amen! Why has the Church forgotten this so much about knowing someone by their fruit? Possibly they are not even living by faith. Where has the love gone for our fellow human beings that seem to be more concerned to convince people by rituals and symbolism that they already have faith than if they even have faith. There is far too much assumptions that people are living by faith. People show up at at a religious observance at church and we assume they must have faith so we take them through countless rituals.
Sir Edward mentioned something that all of us could be doing with others who are living a carnal lifestyle. Delivering someone to Satan doesn't mean put them in a taxi and send them to a Satanic coven. It means we are supposed to speak God's truth to them, if they refuse than we are to let them go and let the Spirit of God convict them. If they repent and turn back than they'll be better off for it. Sorry, I paraphrased an important scripture. I realize there is more to it than just that.
| 2005/12/6 12:42||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
Have we forgoten that Jesus has a women who MANAGED HIS MONEY? Jesus was paid by women.
didn't judas mind the treasury for the disciples? where does the word say Jesus was paid by women...and for what? not that i've read the whole bible but i don't remember reading anything like that.
not sure what you meant about Paul being added by the church of philipi. could you explain further?
| 2005/12/6 13:14||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
the Lord does make provision for His workers whether it is by providing some sort of employment or by softening the hearts of the flock the worker is sent to to give as they can. personally knowing my own character i'd probably be like Paul by not taking any help in Rome but at the end of the day we should be sure of what the Lord would have us do in such situations.
bro when you spoke of the unliklihood of a t.v. preacher or preacher at a local church knowing our spiritual needs without knowing us well i felt you there. this is how the early church was, when they gathered the Holy Spirit moved in them and through them and as they fellowshipped they got to know one another to the point where they could confess their sins to one another. it's no accident that Christ had the church set up to be communal. i feel we must return to those roots and also that the Lord will see to it by any means necessary.
| 2005/12/6 13:22||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
you bring up a good point in that we should also adress the flock and we do at times get carried away and neglect that. i feel though that lack of submission to the Holy Spirit is key in this. if we would only submit then He'd lead us into what we should do in light of all these things. also most people aren't diligent about studying the word either so that they may be used to question certain things. then we're not too fond of rocking the boat...but the one we worship straight up tipped that boat over...let us all seek the leadings of the Spirit of God to address these things. if we are led to jump up and object in the middle of a sermon then let us not shy from that.
let us fall on our faces and diligently seek the Lord on what we should do.AMEN
| 2005/12/6 13:28||Profile|
Right on Ironman! It is shocking to me how the Lord provides for me in my life. I am a self employed business man and I have seen how the Lord has used my business as a tool to reach others. That would include my business partner and employees. You are correct in that Paul in fact did ask congregations of The Church to set aside money for his missionary journeys so he could help others. I believe that God does indeed soften the hearts of people to help those who are in need as they spread the gospel. The way that is being done these days seems to be far different than the way it was originally established.
I agree that we need to return to those roots and I believe that those who are serious God is more than willing to help them out to reach that goal of restoring what He originally established in His Church. Unfortunately, so many want only want man has created.
| 2005/12/6 13:41||Profile|