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PosterThread
Onfire
Member



Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

Ironman I like what you have been addressing here. Remember that Paul earned his own keep by tentmaking. While it is scripturally correct to help those who are in need as they spread the gospel, the fact is that all believers are supposed to be in full time ministry. This it the call of the Lord on every follower of Christ, not just a few.

If indeed some are called to pastor does this indicate that some should earn their living from the gospel. All are equal in the body of Christ.

Paul speaks about that in 1 Cor. 9:16 onward. So while I don't think it is wrong to help a fellow believer out as they are spreading the gospel whichever way they feel called, I don't see the need for some in the body of Christ to earn a living off of the Gospel while others work earning their own living and spreading the Gospel.

I think about it this way. Christ gives us salvation freely to those who believe ~> yet we sell His Gospel message and earn a living from it, and raise money on behalf of it.

 2005/12/5 22:07Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 on judging the servants

brethren
what has happened here is that gross error on the part of the servants of God (or who purport themselves to be) has been pointed out. their lavish lifestyles are not the way Christ lived nor the apostles nor should we ourselves strive to live as such. this can be a big obstacle to winning souls for Christ because even an unbeliever can see that here is something fishy there...judging involves not just pointing out error but then PUNISHING it also. if you see how the word judge is used in scripture you'll find that the Lord points out the error and then administers the fitting punishment, that is judgement. let's not hide behind the scripture in John 8:7 by twisting it and using it as an excuse to shy from pointing out error in eachother when the Holy Spirit led to. Paul said that even he didn't do the things which were good that he wanted to but did the evil which he didnt want to do and yet he railed against sin as the Lord led him to. let's not punk out of calling out sin when the Holy Spirit leads. if we follow that logic then noone would be able to say anything at all about sin,where would we be then? :-?

that scripture is an exhortation to remind us not to punish others rashly because we don't have all the facts. i did a little digging on that scripture and the law of moses did say that the woman should be put to death but not that she be stoned so unless she was either married, about to be or a priest's daughter,the people here were not applying this law correctly in the first place. the woman here was guilty without doubt but i'm convinced she was convicted of her sin and repented and received forgiveness from Christ.

brethren when the Lord leads we should expose error wherever it may be found, first in ourselves and then also in others so that we may come to the place where the Lord would have us.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/5 22:27Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Onfire
in light of what Paul wrote in Corinthians about the worker being worth his keep perhaps we should also take into consideration how well one is working for the Lord? also i don't think that those who did receive aid from the people they were sent to were given a free ticket, did they not find work elsewhere also? can someone shed some light on that?

you brought up a good point in that we all should be working actively in the body of Christ.this has been hindered by the current church setup. we tend to let the pastor do most of the work when we should really be fully participating in the meeting when we come together and fellowhship. when the church met in the early days, they allowed Holy Spirit to come in and move as God would have Him move so that all could participate hence the exhortations about prophesying in tongues and order in the meetings.

bro Paul says though that one who preaches is entitled some some kinda reward from that and reap some material benefits (though not hording millions of dollars) though i think he's saying this from the standpoint of one who labours for the church as tirelessly as the Lord led him to, maybe the reward goes with how much work the servant has done?

i pray we seek the Lord's counsel on this...my head is beginning to hurt :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/5 22:53Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3224
Texas

 Re: on judging the servants

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
let's not hide behind the scripture in John 8:7 by twisting it and using it as an excuse to shy from pointing out error in eachother when the Holy Spirit led to.



Yea lets not twist any scripture no one does that here :-P
Also we each have the Holy Spirit within us if were saved and the one in me is not pointing anything out to me personally to point out any error, sometimes folks think the Holy Spirit speaks to one speaks to all the same but I don't think the Holy Spirit I know of works like that, I think the Holy Spirit talks to each one as individuals, and until I personally hear the Holy Spirit within me tell me to point out any error to anyone I will keep my mouth shut been working good for me for the past 25 years so I will continue to have this attitude. :-)


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Mr. Bill

 2005/12/5 23:46Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Absolutely not...

Though there is a multitude of threads in this regard it is difficult to keep silent here.

Having come out from underneath many of the aforementioned names and the whole of this brand of 'theology' I don't find any sympathy whatsoever in any of this. There a few others around here who have come out of similar constructs.

It is a rather painful matter to go back and retread all this here, would recommend doing a search on some of these names and reading the thoughts expressed.

Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin. There are lives being affected by all this, attempting to dislodge one from something of this sort is very difficult ...

The audacity and flippancy alone ought to be telling enough. The money being bilked out of the unsuspecting, the vulnerable, and yes even the ignorant (would class myself in the latter) is the height of audacity. There is no middle ground here, to try and make scriptural precepts for this kind of nonsense is beyond reason and it is weary to hear it.

Quote:
I'm personally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Should we not be nervous to judge others less the wrath of God fall on us?



Again, read through some of the horror story's on Benny Hinn for starters. Hiding behind the scriptures is no warrant for not calling these purporters on the carpet. Have been on both extremes of this, from sucked into it all to the opposite, raging, bitter and while deeply grieved over it all, still it was an unhealthy and sinful anger at times.

This is a case where both the baby and the bathwater need to go. The very people being led astray are the ones that will and do foot the bill for this, in many, many different ways. Yes we are called to bring justice and expose that which is misleading those the Lord died to save. This is a false gospel and a false Christ that they are selling, note that, selling.


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Mike Balog

 2005/12/5 23:51Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3224
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin.



And I totally agree with you on this statement, but I also truly believe that the Lord has some called to do this that can express this in a Godly manner and get the message across to the folks in Love that need to know and on the other hand I also believe "not all" are called to do so that is why we all need to listen to the Holy Spirit within us and I hope all would agree that we all need to listen to what the Holy Spirit within us is leading us to do, I sure would not want to suggest to anyone that I think that the Spirit within you is leading you to do something, unless of course I was God. :-)


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Mr. Bill

 2005/12/5 23:59Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro bill

Quote:
Yea lets not twist any scripture no one does that here Also we each have the Holy Spirit within us if were saved and the one in me is not pointing anything out to me personally to point out any error, sometimes folks think the Holy Spirit speaks to one speaks to all the same but I don't think the Holy Spirit I know of works like that, I think the Holy Spirit talks to each one as individuals, and until I personally hear the Holy Spirit within me tell me to point out any error to anyone I will keep my mouth shut been working good for me for the past 25 years so I will continue to have this attitude.



if you feel that the Lord hasn't led you to expose error very well, do as the Lord has instructed you to do in all dilligence but we should all be weary that our reluctance to do things is not because our hearts have been hardened due to disobedience, i've had some situations in which the Lord told me to do something and i didn't and later on was rebuked for it.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/6 0:17Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I hope all would agree that we all need to listen to what the Holy Spirit within us is leading us to do


Concur wholeheartedly brother. This whole matter has become one perhaps of a settled 'sternness' if I might press it that way. It was most certainly the more passionate and even if on the verge of a anger, righteous indignation, however it might be recognized. It was those voices that ultimately got my attention and I believe what was back of it was truly love and concern borne out of it.


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Mike Balog

 2005/12/6 0:20Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3224
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
i've had some situations in which the Lord told me to do something and i didn't and later on was rebuked for it.



I bet everyone here has been there done that, so did I miss the something here? :-P


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Mr. Bill

 2005/12/6 0:21Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

Ironman ~> You're correct that the current church system has a hierarchy in it that I do not believe that Christ established for His Church. If you look at the example that Christ gave us. He took a dozen + men and women and taught them to be His followers. Today we have one person with the job title of Pastor who takes on many more all at once. This was also a good point that you made concerning those who were assisted. They weren't given a free ride where they went.

Bottom line; are we not to trust God for providing our needs both financially and spiritually? It seems that many who have taken on a carreer in ministry trust man for their provisions more so than God.

In regards to my own life. God provides me with a carreer and in turn I devote my life daily to spreading the truth of what He teaches me and how His Spirit guides me. I don't have to pass the offering plate to spread the Gospel message.

In regards to prosperity T.V. preachers, they have unfortunately the right to do what they do. Besides the money that they are receiving we need to be very concerned about the twisting of truth.

We have to return to the way that Christ established things to be in His Church. Christ is the Shepherd not man. That means He is the only Pastor we need. Any pastoring comes directly through Him and He anoints people to pastor our spiritual needs.

We have to question ourselves and our circumstances. How is it that someone who only sees us from the front of a building once a week or someone who mildly knows of our concerns or someone preaching over T.V. can possibly know what our spiritual needs are? Jesus Christ built relationships with the people that He pastored. He still wants to. Pastoring comes from those who are spiritually mature and from those in whom we have built up a relationship with in the body of Christ.

 2005/12/6 0:31Profile





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