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Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

I don't believe that I'm defining death and perishing by Webster's definition. I believe the scriptures are clear about what they say. I see as much human understanding and assumptions in regards to those who believe in eternal punishment as from those who accuse me of believing that the wages of sin is death.

The best thing about being filled with the Spirit of God is that we have the opportunity to have insight into the spiritual realm.

Regardless of the debate that goes on about the physicality of Hell, I'm glad I won't have to worry about going there or being annihilated. And I still don't believe in fearmongering someone into making a decision to follow Christ. People should fear God not being punished.

 2005/12/11 23:31Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

BeYeDoers this is off topic; however, many people involve themselves in idolatrous worship within institutional churches and they too should set their mind straight with God as well regarding what they have done to His Church.

 2005/12/11 23:35Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

I will have a look at it, thanks! :-)

Quote:
GaryE wrote:
Dear Onfire and Warrior4Jah,

In the Sermon Index there is a read text by Johnathan Edwards called Devine Retribution on the subject of hell. You both may find it interesting to listen to.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/12 5:36Profile
tacklebox
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Joined: 2005/10/8
Posts: 196
Roanoke Rapids, NC

 Re:

Quote:
They will not go to a place of eternal punishment, but they will cease to exist. There is no way that a loving God will punish people forever for not choosing Him. It will be exactly as scripture said, that whoever should believe would not perish.



How do you explain these words by Christ? (Who I believe didn't waste a single word nor used words lightly as men do):

"And these shall go away into [b]everlasting punishment[/b]: but the righteous into life eternal." -Matt. 25:46 (emphasis added)

And don't try to say that the Greek word for "evenlasting" doesn't really mean "eternal" because the same word used for eternal punishment is also used in that SAME verse for eternal life. So if we have life eternal, then the lost have puishment eternal. It's nothing I am happy about, and it saddens me beyond measure, but changing the words of Christ won't just to make me feel better is never a good policy. In fact, knowing there is such a place quickens me to spread the Gospel and interceed in prayer daily.


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Christopher Wright

 2005/12/12 8:44Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

What I find very interesting and please forgive my boldness because I'm not directing this to anyone here. If I were to go on about my denomination or my Pastor or the programs in the building that I attend,no one would probably question if my faithfulness was more to the doctrines of man. No one would question if I'm glorifying a person in leadership as my authority over Christ. No one would question if I were given to the many false doctines that are being taught through Christianity. And no one would question if I disregarded the Church that He established for the one that man instituted. People tend to hone in on the nonessential things and miss the fact that so many people have more allegiance to what man has built up rather than what Christ wants to build within us.

To whom my faith rests is by far more important than whether I think this or that is a physical place once by body kicks the bucket. I just think it is very interesting, because I could go on forever about being involved in earthly things that man has built using Christ's name and few would venture to correct me in those regards. But being more concerned about the spiritual state of things rather than the physical state seems to get a lot of people riled up.

 2005/12/12 9:11Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I haven't seen anyone on this post question your faithfulness. None of us have a right to do so. What we are questioning is the way you interpret scripture. You have not presented anything from scripture that says death means annihilation, and several of us have presented abundant scripture showing that hell is real and God will eternally punish the wicked. You said that the issue is nonessential, and you are right as far as salvation is concerned. You do not have to believe in hell to be saved. But I DO believe that hell is absolutely essential to the gospel. You said that we should fear God and not punishment. True. But what did Jesus say? "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him" (Luke 12:5). Jesus used the truth that AFTER death God can cast into hell (what is he casting? bodies into the fire pit outside of Jerusalem? who cares? that's nothing to fear if your soul is annihilated). It was hell that Jesus used to instill the fear of God.

I also haven't seen anyone here defend their church building. They are defending the scriptures. This is a red herring and a straw man. If you are insinuating that the eternal punishment and lake of fire is a man-made doctrine and originated in an institutionalized building and therefore can't be true, then that is a genetic fallacy. It also just isn't true...it's not a man-made doctrine, it's a Jesus-made doctrine.

I am only continuing this conversation b/c I believe you are in theological error on something that is one of the key points of the gospel and the Christian faith (again not essential for salvation). Annihilationism disregards the clearest of teachingsof scripture on this subject. Jesus was more clear about what hell is like than heaven. You have not adequately explained any of the scriptures that several of us have provided. You have not supplied any form of refutation, only a restatement of your beliefs. I'm not here to have worldly debate or to argue. "What happens after we die" is one of the most important spiritual truths and must be answered for every person in at least a basic way. If annihilation is true, then sinners have no reason to want to spend eternity in heaven. They do not want to come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed (John 3:20). They love their sin and want nothing to do with God. If there is no hell and they are just annihilated, that's what they want!! They would rather live the way they want and just cease to exist if that means avoiding God and his "no fun zone" that we Christians like to call life with Christ. The devil created the doctrine of annihilation b/c he doesn't want you to believe in hell. Hell might actually cause someone to see the seriousness of their crimes against God and repent!

Exegesis, not eisegesis.


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Denver McDaniel

 2005/12/12 10:17Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

If my faith in God is in question than I should be judged because scripture does tell us to do that.

I have presented from scripture two very imporant verses that says, The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment. And John 3:16 which indicates that they will have everlasting life if they believe and will not perish. It doesn't say they will have everlasting punishment. I also indicated that people will be punished. Not receiving everlasting life is punishment in of itself.

It's interesting how so many people can give vivid descriptions about the state of Hell and eternal punishment but only assumptions about Heaven.

You're right Jesus did use Hell as an analogy and we must understand in context what Christ was really referring to. We can't take His analogies and turn them into physical realities. We must understand the time line from which He taught these important lessons as well as to whom He was speaking and the examples that He was using in those analogies.

I always thought the gospel was essential for salvation and you're telling me that Hell is key points of the gospel, but it's not essential to salvation.

Jesus was more clear about the death of a person's soul than He was a physical location where God would make people suffer for not choosing Him.

I didn't say one time that I don't believe there is Hell. I believe that people will be punished. I do not believe in eternal punishment. I do believe that man will be held accountable and be judged.I do believe that Jesus Christ spoke clearly that people would suffer and die as a result of their separation from Him just as those outside the walls of the city. They're bodies were destroyed. If we do not choose Him our punishment is that we will not inherit eternal life.

People defend their church buildings all the time.

I believe that the second death indicates clearly that death will end.

What happens after we die is no where near as important as how we live now. Are you dieing now, because that's what Christ is more concerned about.

I'm concerned more about people's faith in Christ now. The rest is up to God to decide because He is the judge of their salvation. People are unwilling to look at the spiritual state and faith of others but they get off on tangents about what they think Heaven and Hell are all about. The fact is Heaven exists for those who follow Christ now and for many people who call themselves Christians this is a concept they are unfamiliar with. Many have no clue what spiritual warfare is all about but they are filled with all sorts of notions about Hell and eternal punishment.

I don't believe in annihilation. I believe people will be punished. I believe their punishment is to not receive eternal life and that their soul will perish / die as scripture clearly states and as Christ clearly taught using the pit and sacrifice of sinful people as an example.

Did Jesus ask us to defend scriptures?

 2005/12/12 23:11Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

Tackle ~> Death is eternal isn't it. Death of our soul is the punishment that we receive. Punishment in the form of torture is not what is referred to in Matt 25:46

Everlasting/eternal it means forever. Our punishment is that we will perish.

When you have a child and they don't make the choice that you would hope that they would make, do you give them an eternal spanking or is their punishment that they do not receive what they could have had if they would have made the proper choice?

Most Christians don't understand the scriputal importance that Heaven exists for us now in this lifetime. They are waiting to die to get to Heaven and God wants them to be a part of it now. Many are spiritually dead and they are just waiting for their bodies to catch up with their souls.

 2005/12/12 23:17Profile
CyberCarbon
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Re:

Your spirit is eternal, the second death is a judgement by God.


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David Michael Paul

 2005/12/17 2:16Profile









 Re:

Onfire wrote:

Quote:
I have presented from scripture two very imporant verses that says, The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment. And John 3:16 which indicates that they will have everlasting life if they believe and will not perish. It doesn't say they will have everlasting punishment. I also indicated that people will be punished. Not receiving everlasting life is punishment in of itself.



The Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23), and also, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom.3:23). If all have sinned, starting from Adam - "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen.2:17) - we all deserve to and will die. Death is a reality and it is because of sin that death came into the world. But notice that Adam doesn't die physiologically right away. His death because of sin is a death of the spirit, not the body. It is not an end to his earthly life or existence.

Also have in mind that we cannot equate eternal life (which can begin in this world) with mere existence. You may exist in the flesh, but if you have not believed in the Son of God, in reality, you are dead as of this moment (Lk.15:32). That is to say, a person exists in fleshly form, but the life of God is not in him; hence, s/he is dead because of the sin s/he has committed. This, however, is a present or temporary state of death (which, of course, can become eternal if the person never comes back to life), or it is the absence of life (until the son in the parable is “alive again”). Paul also compares this absence as a state of sleep (1 Cor.15:6).

The Scripture, however, does not specify a kind of temporary life equivalent to this kind of temporary death (whose grip you can get out of once you are saved). True life, as the one in Christ, is eternal life; if it were not eternal, then it would be no life at all. See, there is no need for Jesus to compare real, eternal life with worldly, temporary death, for such a comparison is useless. Christ speaks in heavenly terms here and about eternal values. The Scripture says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16). The opposite of eternal life will be eternal death or the absence of such life – not a state of non-existence, for one can be dead in the flesh in this world and still exist. This death, then, is the absence of eternal life, or the eternal absence of life.

It is a fact that all have sinned and will die (“the wages of sin” being both temporary and eternal death), but to “perish" here is rather the absence of the eternal life that is only in Christ (1 Jn.5:11), and not annihilation of the soul or it ceasing to exist. It is the opposite of life, and since life, as Christ presents it, is not tantamount to mere existence, then death is not the opposite of existence. Hence, it does not mean the end of existence, just as being dead right now by not believing in Christ does not mean you or your spirit do not exist.

Onfire—

I think here we have to distinguish between death as an end to earthly life and death as opposite to eternal life or life, not of the body, but of the soul. The John 3 text talks about death as an eternal state or quality juxtaposed to life, and it is beyond this life. The Bible also says that because of the sin you have committed, you will surely die (see Ez.18:24). This is a different kind of death – the text could have well said, “because of the sin he has committed, he is surely dead already,” but it does not. Also, in 2 Cor.4:3, Paul says, “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing” (emphasis mine). He does not write that the gospel is veiled to those who have perished, meaning that the one in context is a different kind of death – this time a death coming in the future and not temporary.

I think here the question is what meaning we attribute to the words “death” and “perish.” If we speak in heavenly terms, assuming that there is no beginning and no end since everything is eternal, then we need to revise our notions of life and death, and more so the idea that while death is an end in itself, there is nothing apart from it, not even the notion of existence. It is, in fact, just the opposite: while death is an end in itself, it takes place in eternity, or it is an eternal state. It is the absolute end or absence of life, and, therefore, not an annihilation of the soul. Think about it this way: If I were dead in the flesh right now, and because of this death my soul were, indeed, annihilated, then why would Christ come to save souls that didn’t exist in the first place?


Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts (Col.3:15),
S. Stefanov

 2005/12/19 12:17





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