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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This is not true. In fact, it would just be a typical Hebrew "synonymous parallelism" of which there are probably hundreds in the scripture. You will see how misplaced your logic is by examining:



What you say is a possibility, it allows for the possiblily that he is restating the same thing. But it also allows for the possiblility that they are tho separate events. Paul spoke of "on to visions and revelations" plural.

One cannot fasten a hard doctrine on this one passage but it allows for either interpretation and the fact that they are two separate statements contrary to your example suggest the later. So to say, "This is not true" is not a fair statement. It is the totality of the revelation in the Word of God upon which we fasten doctrine.

We know that the Lord said to the thief on the Cross. "This day you shall be with Me in Paradise". And in other passages we are told that when the Lord died, He "decended into hades", not that he "went to heaven". Yet He also said' this day you shall be with Me in Paradise.

The Lord ascended to the heavens after His resurrection, not in the interval between His crusifixion and resurrection. When the Lord died on the Cross He decened into hades into Paradise. The place of the just dead. That is the "Bossom of Abraham", Paradise.


Graftedbranch

 2005/12/10 10:27Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Onfire, you said

Quote:
They will not go to a place of eternal punishment, but they will cease to exist. There is no way that a loving God will punish people forever for not choosing Him.


Not to be rude, but you are dead wrong my friend. This view of annihilation is found nowhere in scripture and in fact is anti-scriptural. Lexicons and history are good tools, but don't let them interpret scripture for you. Sheol in the OT was a general term meaning "place of the dead." The Jews believed that after you die, you go to Sheol...it wasn't necessarily bad, good, whatever, but souls did continue to exist there after the body died.

Now, your assumption that a loving God would never punish eternally is simply your assumption based on human wisdom. The God of the Bible is loving, but that doesn't outweigh His other attributes. He is also Holy, Holy, Holy and will righteously judge the living and the dead. A loving, just judge MUST punish the wicked.

You are right about Gehenna being a pagan trash incineration heap, and Jesus used this as an analogy and foreshadow of the things to come so that unrepent sinners would be motivated to repent once they had an idea of what would happen to them. While Gehenna was temporal, the fire of hell is eternal. Jesus was 100% clear about this (Mt 18:8, 25:41). Jesus was also clear about God's eternal punishment (Mt 25:46). Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus is telling it to teach the Pharisees the realities of heaven and hell and who would enter each. The rich man was in torment because of the flames. His body is dead, but his conscious soul, the torment, and the flames are very much real. You will say "that is just a parable". No it's not. It really happened. The way Jesus tells this story is very unlike any of his parables. There are names of people, lots of detail, and it is being directed toward a specific group of people in a specific way. But even if it was a parable, and annihilationism is true, Jesus would have been ludicrous for making up such a story b/c it would have in no way taught anything remotely close to the truth.

The rest of scripture also bears witness to an eternal place of torment. Jude says that the fire is part of the eternal punishment (Jude 7). The devil will not be annihilated. God is eternal from eternity past to eternity future. Angels exist from temporal past to eternity future. Humans have temporal bodies past, present, future, but have souls existing from temporal past to eternity future. The devil will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone with the beast and false prophet "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). After the great white throne judgment, "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15). A taste of eternal life is described in Rev. 21:1-7, eternal death in verse 8. It is the death that does not die, and the fire that never burns out.

Whatever you call it (the Bible calls it hell or the lake of fire), God has created a place of eternal punishment for the devil, the 1/3 of angels that rebelled with him, and every human being that has ever lived and not repented of his sin and exercised his faith solely in Jesus Christ, the God of the universe.
----------------------------------------------
In response to the original post, I believe that after the cross, Jesus went to the part of Sheol holding the OT redeemed and led them to paradise, and subsequently all believers will go here after death to be with our Lord. After Judgment Day, all believers will be in the very presence of God in all his glory for all eternity.

denver


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Denver McDaniel

 2005/12/10 14:42Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hey Onfire,

Another verse that comes to mind regarding this:

([b]Isa 66:24[/b])
[i]And they will go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have sinned against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be put out; and they will be an object of disgust to all flesh.[/i]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7740]The worm that never dies..[/url]
A compilation I found very powerful, but perhaps you should listen to the sermon first. Which I don't know the full link for.. perhaps someone else can provide the link?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/11 9:51Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
what of this scripture in luke chapter 16. it may appear to be a parable but not that the disciples don't ask what it means nor does Jesus give any other explanation for what it means. it seems to me that either this was well known among people of the time and perhaps disputed but the disciples seemed to understand it as what would happen after death.there is a separation between the wicked and righteous in this place where the wicked are in torment while the righteous are in Abraham's Bosom. This is before the day of judgement after which both these people who died before Christ returned and those who were living at Christ's return are sent to their respective places.

[b]19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[/b]


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/11 13:54Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

BeYeDoer ~> I accept the fact that I could be wrong and God may in fact want to punish people forever. However, I believe scripture also when it refers to perishing and death as being exactly that.

Personally, I believe it would be punishment enough to be judged and found that I had made the wrong choice and that my soul had no opportunity for eternal life. Yes, there will be a lot of gnashing of teeth when they realize they have made a very bad choice.

If you have to fear someone into making that choice by using fire and brimstone, than have they really made that choice based upon their faith in Him.

 2005/12/11 14:39Profile
Onfire
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Joined: 2005/11/20
Posts: 49


 Re:

Warrior ~> I appreciate all of your discussion on this matter and I'm not just trying to be contrary and difficult. I listened to the sermon on the worm that never dies it was interesting.

I believe there is punishment for all who do not put their faith in Christ. I believe that the punishment is to perish/death, to not receive eternal life is their punishment. We are not just merely annihilated, we suffer that punishment of not receiving eternal life, we face His judgement first.

Here's another thought. If Christ ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven and it exists for us now spiritually, than does Hell being its counterpart also exist for us spiritually now. We are either part of one or the other now, light or dark. So in that sense Heaven and Hell are physical because we also have physical bodies and those bodies participate in the spiritual realm now.

 2005/12/11 14:51Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hey onfire,

Nowhere (so far I know) in scripture death is being explained as 'the end of your existance'.
Do you believe that Gods Word does not contradict itself?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/11 14:59Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hey onfire,

Well we seek God and want His Truth, not our own truth right? :-)

Quote:
onfire wrote:
Warrior ~> I appreciate all of your discussion on this matter and I'm not just trying to be contrary and difficult. I listened to the sermon on the worm that never dies it was interesting.


What do you exactly think what happens to a person after judgement?

Quote:
I believe there is punishment for all who do not put their faith in Christ. I believe that the punishment is to perish/death, to not receive eternal life is their punishment. We are not just merely annihilated, we suffer that punishment of not receiving eternal life, we face His judgement first.


The Kingdom of God is also on earth present in people who follow God.
The world and the children of the world walk in darkness, the Bible tells us that we walk in the light if we follow the Lord. (and this is on the dark earth)

This doesn't mean that people who walk in darkness are now in hell. People, now not aware of judgement and living without Christ spend their lives living for self and even enjoy their (sinful) lives.

Quote:
Here's another thought. If Christ ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven and it exists for us now spiritually, than does Hell being its counterpart also exist for us spiritually now. We are either part of one or the other now, light or dark.


I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here with this last quote. But hell is not (on) earth.
I have no insight on the spiritual realm, other then that I know it exists and that the saints on this world do have an impact on it. :-)

You could see the earth as a battlefield for souls. Satan trying all in his power to keep the people ensnared in self, trying everything in his power to prevent people from getting to know and live for Christ.

Quote:
So in that sense Heaven and Hell are physical because we also have physical bodies and those bodies participate in the spiritual realm now.


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/11 15:28Profile
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Dear Onfire and Warrior4Jah,

In the Sermon Index there is a read text by Johnathan Edwards called Devine Retribution on the subject of hell. You both may find it interesting to listen to.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/11 16:49Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Onfire,
once again you are letting Webster define "death" and "perish" for you, not the Bible. Let scripture interpret scripture. Death in our understanding of the word, from a dictionary, may mean ceasing to exist, but it DOESN'T mean that in scripture. In the Bible death does not die. The word death is chosen just because it is the opposite of life. They are both eternal. Read Jesus' words again in Matthew, as well as Jude's. They say without contention that hell and the punishment therein is ETERNAL. In Revelation the devil and beast and the false prophet are punished "day and night forever and ever" in the lake of fire where all the unregenerate also go. Does the Bible say that or not? You are ignoring parts of scripture and getting your theology from an English definition of a word. Please read scripture. I beg you to set your mind straight with God. His word is very clear on this matter.


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Denver McDaniel

 2005/12/11 16:54Profile





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