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JesusIsLife
Member



Joined: 2005/11/18
Posts: 17


 Re:

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in you own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

 2005/12/7 12:47Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Randilover
the parables the Lord used were to do with things that were familiar to those to whome He spoke. they were also pretty simple and short. now for us looking back on them we can see they are pretty simple to understand because Holy Spirit has allowed us to understand. The disciples had Christ to explain the parables to them and i'm sure that after Christ left they explained them to many others. i think the whole idea of drawing such parallels to God from such stories is dangerous in that one can be distracted by the story itself. what's wrong with simply using what is in scripture? i don't think the Lord's simple parables about say the prodigal son or the mustard seed in any way resmble the complexity of the Chronicles of Narnia. :-?

you make the assumption that your child may not understand the concept of salvation right away, what about trying to explain it from scripture as the Lord leads, you may be surpised. i have some friends who did this with their children and they had no problem grasping salvation. Perhaps we shield our children too much and assume them incapable of understanding the mystery of salvation. but didn't Christ say that we must be as children to understand the kingdom of God? does it not follow then that children would have no problems understanding such things?

also about the characters in which Christ was revealed in the o.t. such as Melchizedek, they were not fictional. the only one i'm sure of is Melchizedek because He is the only one mentioned as a manifestation of Christ from the O.T. in the little i've read of the N.T. As far as i know Melchizedek's recognition as a manifestation of Christ is the only one that is qualified. perhaps someone knows of some others? so that is not blasphemy.

if the Lord is leading you to draw such parallels from the Narnian Chonicles then so be it. He's not led me to do so so i'm not going to fight Him on that. until/untill He does, i'm not messin with any of that to use it in any way to lead people to Christ, not even my own daughter. again i say, the apostles and the others sent with the gospel spoke as Holy Spirit led and the pattern was always speaking against sin to show the need for repentance, then repentance of the person(s) and baptism. when they did this the Lord added daily to their number.is this way not good enough for us any more that we have to come up with such imaginings? are the old paths not good enough any more my brothers and sisters? it seems we are perspiring to do God's work rather than being inspired by Holy SPirit :-( . it seems like a good enough idea and seems to fit well enough to do this but like proverbs says, there is a way which seems right unto man, but the end result is destruction. Let us be sure what the Lord would have us do concerning souls because they are precious to Him.

again if this is what the Lord is leading you to believe then so be it, but let us all be sure of what God would have us do concerning the salvation of our brothers.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/12/7 12:48Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hey Krispy,

I don't find it a problem to question this if its not in a premade spirit of condemnation. As you say I'm not here to be politically correct but because I want the Truth. Regarding C.S. Lewis himself, I only know about the book 'The problem of pain' which I found a good read.

Quote:
I got in trouble on another forum like SI a few years ago because I dared to question C.S. Lewis' personal beliefs. That forum was becoming increasingly concerned about being "politically correct" ... SI is more concerned about truth. (Praise God!)



As I have a problem with Lord of the Rings (as its very magic filled), I found it hard to find out that C.S. Lewis closely associated with Tolkien. I have no problem with fiction though; I've really enjoyed Randy Alcorn's books for example. With the only sidenote that I have to be careful not to let my Bible-reading suffer under it. :-)

Quote:
I think before everyone gets all excited about Narnia, people should really spend some time really studying C.S. Lewis' beliefs. He was more Roman Catholic than anything else... and even HE claimed that the Narnia series was NOT an allagory of Christ. C.S. Lewis was impressed with his friend Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and THAT was the inspiration for Narnia. Not the Bible.



People have to decide for themselves (with God) if they are going to watch so and so movie.
The question about Narnia rose up as I read a weblog of a friend of mine where she had started a discussion about Harry Potter. To be honest, I see no real difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. To my disappointion I see no real difference between Lord of the Rings and Narnia.
I can be wrong, but if I'm not I wouldn't mind not reading the Narnia series or seeing the movie.
The point is that I would like to find out before watching the movies or reading the books. (Is this possible even?) I don't try to be shortsighted but I do want to sit on the safe side as this is only entertainment.
Perhaps its fair to ask God if He wants to give me the desire to read or see this movie if its good for me! Skip the perhaps, I will be asking this tonight.

Quote:
I'm not saying that people shouldnt see Narnia, or even Lord of the Rings, for that matter. But Christians need to realize that neither of these stories should be attributed to the Word of God for their inspiration. But the "Christian" merchants want you to believe that... so they can sell you their Narnia coffee mugs, pencils, book marks, etc etc.


_________________
Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/7 17:13Profile
Randilover
Member



Joined: 2005/1/21
Posts: 17


 Re:

Quote:

Warrior4Jah wrote:
Hey Krispy,

As I have a problem with Lord of the Rings (as its very magic filled), I found it hard to find out that C.S. Lewis closely associated with Tolkien. I have no problem with fiction though; I've really enjoyed Randy Alcorn's books for example. With the only sidenote that I have to be careful not to let my Bible-reading suffer under it. :-)

People have to decide for themselves (with God) if they are going to watch so and so movie.
The question about Narnia rose up as I read a weblog of a friend of mine where she had started a discussion about Harry Potter. To be honest, I see no real difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. To my disappointion I see no real difference between Lord of the Rings and Narnia.
I can be wrong, but if I'm not I wouldn't mind not reading the Narnia series or seeing the movie.


I wrote already about the “magic” in Tolkein’s work, so I will not say much more other than you should read (at least a little) to get the context of how it’s used (or find a resource that explains it, there has to be a plethora of websites on the subject). It is light years different than Harry Potter, if for no other reason than it is total fiction where what Potter is made of is based (from what I’ve read) on actual modern day witchcraft practices. Also, as far as Narnia is concerned, off the top of my head, except for one part of the story, whenever magic is used, it has negative consequences.

BTW, did you read Alcorn’s book, the name escapes me, of the two demon’s writing to each other. It’s based on Lewis Screwtape letters. It’s a level down from Lewis’ original, but it was an ok read.

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I think before everyone gets all excited about Narnia, people should really spend some time really studying C.S. Lewis' beliefs. He was more Roman Catholic than anything else... and even HE claimed that the Narnia series was NOT an allagory of Christ. C.S. Lewis was impressed with his friend Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and THAT was the inspiration for Narnia. Not the Bible.


He was Anglican, actually. But the best part was that he never spoke or wrote from a denominational perspective, it was his pursuit of “mere Christianity,” the core beliefs of Christians that span denominations. I also find little in his personal beliefs that I disagree with. I’d be interested in hearing what you disagreed with of his writings. I’m not picking a fight or anything, just interested in what others think. I find his writings to be the best that I read. It’s like what Oswald Chambers said about how the authors you love are not the ones that teach you something new, but the ones who express what you already know/realize/feel.

Also, I’d be interested in knowing where he said Narnia was not an allegory of Christ. It’s hard to think that is the case when the central character of the story offers his innocent life for the life of a guilty party, and then comes back to life. I realize he is not mirroring the Bible, but the concepts and themes are deeply Biblical. It would take hours to detail all of the overt and subtle references to Biblical truth in those books.

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm not saying that people shouldnt see Narnia, or even Lord of the Rings, for that matter. But Christians need to realize that neither of these stories should be attributed to the Word of God for their inspiration. But the "Christian" merchants want you to believe that... so they can sell you their Narnia coffee mugs, pencils, book marks, etc etc.

I just got the latest catalogue for a big national Christian bookstore chain in the mail... and I saw 3 pages of Narnia "junk". Let the merchandizing begin!!


I, too, get bugged by the marketing, but that is the world we live in. I think most of the real fans don’t buy into it, it kind of appeals to the casual fans and readers. It’ll pass and the story will remain where it was before they came along.

 2005/12/8 17:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in you own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?



JesusIsLife...

If by quoting this scripture you are saying that we should not look at what a man believed and weigh it against scripture... then I must say that you do not understand the very scriptures you are quoting.

But welcome anyway. We are all very familiar with scripture here. Why not join the conversationa and not just copy/paste?

We'd love to get to know you!

Krispy

 2005/12/8 17:49









 Re:

Quote:
you make the assumption that your child may not understand the concept of salvation right away, what about trying to explain it from scripture as the Lord leads, you may be surpised.



I think when people make claims like these they are saying that the Holy Spirit isnt capable of drawing us to salvation. Or that the Word of God isnt powerful enough to convict, exhort, reprove... etc. I dont know... it worked pretty good before movies were invented 100 years ago. How in the world did anyone get saved for the first 1900 years of the Church age?

What I have noticed is that a lot of Christians (NOT ALL!) who draw their inspiration from The Passion, or Narnia, or LOTR's... spend more time watching movies or reading the books than they do reading the Word of God. Just my personal observation.

I wish we could do away with ALL entertainment in the church. Merchandizing... idolizing... ugh. I hate the whole thing. Anyone wanna guess why I hate it so much? I'll tell ya... because I find myself getting caught up in it too! It's all a distraction to get our eyes off Christ, and the Word of God.

Krispy

 2005/12/8 17:56
Randilover
Member



Joined: 2005/1/21
Posts: 17


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Randilover
the parables the Lord used were to do with things that were familiar to those to whome He spoke. they were also pretty simple and short. now for us looking back on them we can see they are pretty simple to understand because Holy Spirit has allowed us to understand.


I agree. But my point was that to say just because some one draws parallels, does nto mean they are overstepping their bounds.

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
you make the assumption that your child may not understand the concept of salvation right away, what about trying to explain it from scripture as the Lord leads, you may be surpised.


She usually does surprise me!!! :-) But I do not avoid anything with her, and we read our Fathers and Daughters Bible each night (when permissable). My point is that I am looking forward to reading them to her to get more of her involved in the Bible. I grew up with a great divide in my mind between imagination and what I guess we would call theology. It wasn't until I discovered Lewis and other that those two were thankfully bridged. I don't want that happening in my kids. I can teach a lesson much easier by invoking a word picture that trying to explain a theological truth. (Like we talked about already, Jesus used this in parables for the same reason). Much the same way we use the stories of the OT to bring NT truths to life. Think faith in David and Goliath, or reaping what you sow in Samson’s life, etc.

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
also about the characters in which Christ was revealed in the o.t. such as Melchizedek, they were not fictional. the only one i'm sure of is Melchizedek because He is the only one mentioned as a manifestation of Christ from the O.T. in the little i've read of the N.T. As far as i know Melchizedek's recognition as a manifestation of Christ is the only one that is qualified. perhaps someone knows of some others? so that is not blasphemy.


I am new to the board, so it may have been discussed before, but I don’t think Melchizedek can definitely be attributed as BEING an epiphany. I don’t disagree with those who think so, but Hebrews never really says it was or was not him, just that he is reflective of Christ. I realize he wasn’t fictional, but I was stressing the point that using types is not something blasphemous. David, Abraham, the priests, etc. were all types of Christ. I don’t think Lewis overstepped his bounds in drawing Aslan the lion up as a type of Christ.

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
if the Lord is leading you to draw such parallels from the Narnian Chonicles then so be it. He's not led me to do so so i'm not going to fight Him on that. until/untill He does, i'm not messin with any of that to use it in any way to lead people to Christ, not even my own daughter. again i say, the apostles and the others sent with the gospel spoke as Holy Spirit led and the pattern was always speaking against sin to show the need for repentance, then repentance of the person(s) and baptism. when they did this the Lord added daily to their number.is this way not good enough for us any more that we have to come up with such imaginings? are the old paths not good enough any more my brothers and sisters? it seems we are perspiring to do God's work rather than being inspired by Holy SPirit :-( . it seems like a good enough idea and seems to fit well enough to do this but like proverbs says, there is a way which seems right unto man, but the end result is destruction. Let us be sure what the Lord would have us do concerning souls because they are precious to Him.


I don’t think it leads people to Christ. I agree with you, it’s all God’s doing. But using these things to point to the greater reality is and can be powerful. Peter in his Pentecost sermon pointed at David’s tomb to make a point about Christ. In the same way that those people would never look at David’s tomb and come to salvation, I do not think Narnia on it’s own leads souls to Christ. However at Pentecost someone may have looked at that tomb and pondered man and his sinful state, or wondered of a resurrection from the dead, thereby giving Peter the opportunity to point to the reality of the source of those thoughts and how a person has come to redeem man and give him the hope of a resurrection, so Lewis took the reality of how people long for those things and a hero to redeem them, and a defeat of evil, bringing an end to death, etc. He made the point in a few of his books (I’d recommend “Reflections on the Psalms” to get a good idea of his thinking) that the reason people find Narnia and stories of it's type so complelling and interesting is that there is a conscience and a longing in man (given by God) for those things in the real world. Does that make sense?

I’d also like to say I totally respect your position and my point is not to argue you into reading them or anything. I think it’s honorable that the only thing you read is the Bible (and the SI message board, obviously ;-)) Just wanted to bring to light that they are not something that can be called apostate or blasphemous or anything. I think they can be validated and quite easily.

 2005/12/8 18:01Profile
PaulWiglaf
Member



Joined: 2005/8/31
Posts: 61
Hartselle, Alabama

 The Frontier of Joy

Indeed, Lewis himself thought of such fiction only as a way of "crossing the Great frontier" of joy. For, a preacher by the name of George MacDonald penned several works of fiction, never realizing than he'd influence a sixteen-year-old "Jack" (Lewis) who would pick up a copy--beginning Lewis' quest for joy (which he found in Christ).

Just wanted also to say that one of the first references of the Spirit's annointing in God's people was concerning divers works and crafts (Ex. 31); wouldn't it be cruel to say to a painter, "God hasn't inspired me to look on your work: therefore, I feel it quite base (or even blasphemous)"? Is it truly God or our personal positions that influences whether we like impressionism or abstract art? Classical or contemporary music? traditional or modern (I'm not referring to theology here) styles?

Shouldn't we appreciate the gifts delivered unto our brethren, since we all apart of the body? Paul tells the Corithians that "...the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you" (1 Cor. 12:21), so wouldn't the vice verse (hand against the eye) be just the same?

God made us whole; let's not be creating schisms.

Blessings,
Benjamin

 2005/12/8 18:45Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Randilover

Quote:
She usually does surprise me!!! But I do not avoid anything with her, and we read our Fathers and Daughters Bible each night (when permissable). My point is that I am looking forward to reading them to her to get more of her involved in the Bible. I grew up with a great divide in my mind between imagination and what I guess we would call theology. It wasn't until I discovered Lewis and other that those two were thankfully bridged. I don't want that happening in my kids. I can teach a lesson much easier by invoking a word picture that trying to explain a theological truth. (Like we talked about already, Jesus used this in parables for the same reason). Much the same way we use the stories of the OT to bring NT truths to life. Think faith in David and Goliath, or reaping what you sow in Samson’s life, etc.



then drawing such parallels has benefitted you in some way so as i said before, if the Lord is indeed leading you, then follow but He's not doing that with me. if the word picture method of teaching is workingf for you then use it. at the end of the day we should be sure that we are following what the Lord has placed on us, no more nor less.

i can see why stories such as this would reach out to man's longing for redemption and defeat of evil in the here and now but can such examples not be found in the word that one looks so imaginative stories? :-? in truth dear brother i'm not a big big reader :-P the Lord has been leading me and keeping me in the word to a great degree of late along with a few other books He's led me to. if He does lead me to this one i shall read it. i check the forums every now and then :-P to see what's going on and what is on the hearts of believers and the Lord does teach me much on these boards.

God bless you bro


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/12/9 2:25Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

oh bro Randilover
about Melchizedek what i meant was not that He was Christ Himself but that he was a shadow of Christ. still though as it pertains to types/shadows of Christ i prefer to err on the side of staying in what scripture says are such types.

God bless


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/12/9 2:28Profile





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