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Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

NOwayout,
Assuming genuine salvation could be reached through it. Salvation does not come through anything but the Word of God and it faithful preached. This includes:

1. We are sinners which destines us to hell.
2. Jesus provides a provision for forgivenes of sins through his sacrifice and resurrection.
3. To apply this provision of forgiveness to our lives we must
a. Repent
b. Have Faith in the work of Christ
c. Submit completely to the Lordship of Christ through SELF DENIAL, taking up our cross and following him.

My thoughts are that if a person gets saved through this PDL, it is gonig to be very likely -- though not always a 'false conversion' based on personal gain or enhancement. I have strong beleifs that such a 'salvation' will not ulimately save a person from hell.

If this is wrong I ask you then -- what are Jude and Peter doing in some of their epistles but stating that some people that look like Christians are false -- what if someone saw them who were saved duiring these false ministers gospel heard this and were offended. Or how about Paul who contends with the Judizers -- was he wrong to do so based on your assessment.

The idea theat we should accept everything that comes down the pike becasue it has the label of 'Christian' defiles 1 John 4's admonition to test every spirit. It is the common -- everything is OK -- spirit of our age that must be shown for what it is -- the spirit of the world and not of Christ. Even Christ himself was confrontational with the religious leaders of his day. Truth is not a relative thing -- it is something that must be found and treated as precious and the gospel can be perverted to bring about false conversions -- PDL in my opinion does that.

The Church is described by Paul as -- "The Pillar and Support of the Truth" as such it is called to defend and guard THE truth and not change it for its purposes. It must accept it and confront all perversions and false copies of it --it has a sacred obligation to do so. Feelings are not the issue here -- Truth is.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/12/2 19:28Profile
mshelby
Member



Joined: 2004/8/18
Posts: 15


 Re:

Well, I didn't mean to touch off a firestorm. I have a sense of humor and thought the whole thing was pretty funny (in a satirical sort of way.) The only thing "purpose driven" about the whole spoof was the title and the mocked up book image. The only reason the author used those things in my opinion is because they are eye catching right now.

I don't think his peice was an indictment of PDL, but was just a way to "state the obvious" about people that get sucked into cult-like activities. If PDL resembles any of the reflections in the article - I leave that for you to ponder and do with as your consceince dictates.

As for me, I got a good laugh out of it and moved on. No permenant damage done...

On the broader point - yes it is sad that many organizations lead people astry, and I am sure it grieves the Holy Spirit when it happens. I think the author was really making this very point by using such biting humor.

Many speakers will tell you that humor is one of the best ways to communicate memorable points in your sermons. It plants a mental 'flag' at an important truth or point. each time the hearer harkens back to that humorous moment he is reminded of the greater truth which was presented as well.

I hope that was the case here.


_________________
Mark Shelby

 2005/12/3 0:03Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37218
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

I am personally not finding this funny at all. And a brother that also pm'ed me showed concern. To laugh and joke about the apostasy in Chrisitanity is not good.

[b]Ravenhill Rebukes Pastors[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6684&forum=26

I was just listening to this clip because the thread came to the top of the page and happens to be ont he same page as this cult joke thread. Here is some of the text from the ravenhill clip:

"This is a crisis hour! if you are not serious, I am"

"I am not interesting in preaching in ANY church! I preached 70 years I started when I was 15! I am 85. I don't sleep 2 nights a week God has a record."

Brothers this is a "crisis" hour and we need to and want to be grieved and broken hearted over the backslidden and lukewarm church. I am not trying to come down heavy but really if you think about it, we really need to start getting serious about revival.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/12/3 0:09Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

Christ foresaw the false talking heads long ago. He said in Isaiah 55;11 ..So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. The word of God seems to have a power of its own, irrespective of the person doing the talking.It is independant, preserved,infallible and of this fact i am very grateful. False profits cannot prevail even if they mix the truth with falsehood.


_________________
Trevor Collins

 2005/12/3 4:37Profile
nowayout
Member



Joined: 2005/10/6
Posts: 8


 Re:

"My thoughts are that if a person gets saved through this PDL"

First of all I did not say that PDL saved them, the grace of God alone saves.

, "it is gonig to be very likely -- though not always a 'false conversion' based on personal gain or enhancement. "

Let the wheat grow with the tares, r else you’ll destroy the wheat as well

"I have strong beleifs that such a 'salvation' will not ulimately save a person from hell."

Grace saves and grace alone. Salvation is a gift and a free one. Offered freely maintained by following Jesus.

"If this is wrong I ask you then -- what are Jude and Peter doing in some of their epistles but stating that some people that look like Christians are false –
what if someone saw them who were saved duiring these false ministers gospel heard this and were offended. Or how about Paul who contends with the Judizers -- was he wrong to do so based on your assessment."

I never stated that Paul was wrong, the judizers where teaching that we merited our way into heaven by works. My assessment was based on hat Paul stated in the fact that he gloryed that Christ was preached at all.

"The idea theat we should accept everything that comes down the pike becasue it has the label of 'Christian' defiles 1 John 4's admonition to test every spirit. "

What are you testing the spirit with? Your predejuice or the Whole counsel of the word of God?

"It is the common -- everything is OK -- spirit of our age that must be shown for what it is -- the spirit of the world and not of Christ. Even Christ himself was confrontational with the religious leaders of his day. Truth is not a relative thing -- it is something that must be found and treated as precious and the gospel can be perverted to bring about false conversions -- PDL in my opinion does that."

“PDL in my opinion does that. “ To make that statement about sums it all up, my opinion.

The Church is described by Paul as -- "The Pillar and Support of the Truth" as such it is called to defend and guard THE truth and not change it for its purposes. It must accept it and confront all perversions and false copies of it --it has a sacred obligation to do so. Feelings are not the issue here -- Truth is."
"

I agree that truth is, and Jesus is truth. I am not purposing to defend PDL, just to ask the question as to why someone would go to such great lengths to purport such a thing as the website that is linked at the front of this page.

I think it was a little critical, Paul was not satirical in his delivery. He never, to the best of my knowledge, did what the website at the start of this thread does. That was my point.

The wrath and judgment of God HAS to be tempered with his love or else you get your conversions out of just as emotional response as the PDL crowd.

My last question, Sir, is this, have you read the book, or do you stand on the shoulders of giants and their opinions? Just curious. Eli

 2005/12/3 12:57Profile









 Re:

i didn't read the past 4 comments. but, i truly think this is digusting. as another said

"God's heart is broken over His lost creation and we turn it into hot gossip and even a good satire."

religious satire? I don't think this is right at all. Some things are good for some reasons, but this, is disgusting.

I can't do anything but be broken for reading this. Would Christ right that? No! because that's not pleasing to the Father. :-(

 2005/12/3 19:04
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

nowayout,

Quote:
First of all I did not say that PDL saved them, the grace of God alone saves



But you said in your earlier post:

Quote:
got saved reading the PDL



maybe you should read your previous posts better. I was merly reacting to what you posted. The tare will grow with the wheat, but servents did recognize that some were tares. How did they do this? Because tares do not look like wheat and they bear no fruit like wheat.
By their fruit you will know them. I have no desire to wipe them out but I recognize them for what they are -- something that will not bear fruit in the end.

Quote:
Grace saves and grace alone. Salvation is a gift and a free one. Offered freely maintained by following Jesus.



Allow me a satirical moment: DUH! Having been a preacher of the gospel now for more than 20 years this is obvious to me with one addition -- 'faith without works is dead'(James) and 'by their fruit you will know them'(Jesus) -- if the servants followed what you advocating they would have never mentioned it to the owner that there were tares in the field. How dare they? Who are they to judge? :roll:

Yes Paul glorified that the gospel was preached at all but went on to say that he wished his opponents would castrate themselves. (Literally or was this satirical moment to get them to wake up? I ask you which is worse?) Ouchh! That's harsh. Hey and what about the blinding of Barjesus. That was mean. How's that for the whole council of God in his Word?

I have studied prophets in the Bible for many years - the people they are most rejected by, and the ones they themselves are harshest with, are religious people and the religious establishment.

Quote:
What are you testing the spirit with? Your predejuice or the Whole counsel of the word of God?



Hey, your getting pretty good at this satire and sarcasim thing yourself. Congats. I want to know how I give Biblical examples and my critiscism is not based in the Word. Elijah Himself stands as the greatest example of satire in Scripture:
Quote:
It came about at noon, that [b]Elijah mocked them[/b] and said, "Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened."



Well that wasn't very loving. I believe that false religion should be called false and if necessary mocked to show it for what it si -- foolishness. My opinion is based on studying the Scriptures for 26 years now -- since I was 10. I want to tell you me dear friend (yes for this is how I consider you) if you want the truth and you who preconcieved notions of love, mercy and righteousness turned upside down: Study Scripture! Keith Green says that and I concour. I have and that is why I hold the opinions I hold. The only thing I hold against these people in his site is that they [b]may[/b] have the wrong spirit, but I don't know them to judge them -- so why does everyone here judge them just because they use satire? Satire and sarcasim are long standing prophetic traditions (Read Jeremiah: for as he weeps he speaks some of the most sarcasic things every spoken through a man by God)and prophets are not called to the world every often. Most are called to the people of God.

Of course this is my opinion but I assure you backed with may years of Biblical research and education. You don't have to share it.

Quote:
The wrath and judgment of God HAS to be tempered with his love or else you get your conversions out of just as emotional response as the PDL crowd.



I laugh at this, if anything in our culture the love and grace preaching we have had for the last 30 years needs to be tempered with wrath again. Ray Comfort says it as well that this preahcing produces false conversions and I beleive it Where are these wrath preachers you think exist in abundance? In wrath we should remember mercy, but there is still wrath. The fact is the weight is very much overbalanced in favor of cheap grace these days, wrath is hardly mentioned in the American pulpit and the holiness of God -- well we do become great liars when we sing worship songs these days don't we. 'Holiness is what I long for' Really? Were you a student of history enough ot know that the two great awakenings in the country were started by sermons by simple pastors -- ON GOD's WRATH

Listen, I have gone to Rick's large sermon library -- there is not one of his sermons I looked at (I looked at propably 50) that even mentions God's wrath at all. Everything is about a gospel that is designed for self enhancement and advancememnt. I have read and studied [i]The Purpose Driven Church[/i] and used to impliment it. Now I regret this because I came to a realization. I came to me as a question one day in prayer:
If a person or church is in prayer and is studying the Word and following in obedience to the holy Spirit would he lack purpose? No. This lead me to another relization. Why does this purpose driven thing -- in all its forms -- then thrive in this country and Canada? Because we have become a prayerless and Biblically igonorant people. Holy Spirit lead? Whatever. How can you be lead by the Spirit without prayer or looking to his Word. The only reason people buy this thing is they have no walk with God to give them purpose in the first place, they need someone else to tell them what it should be. The fact is the whole notion of the term 'purpose driven' stinks. Someone should write the [b]prayer[/b] driven chruch. Ravenhill mention in one of his sermons that in every chapter in the book of Acts there is mention of the church praying. How come this is never focused on by a book? If soemone did -- it would never get as popular as this purpsoe driven cult :-) It would appeal to the Spirit and not the flesh.

Yeah, I have read the books and visited the website and I have one conclusion -- The purpose driven church is nothing more than the materialistic mindset of our culture applied to church so we can do the outward signs of success -- bigger building, more people and more money. Baptist style, We Pentecostals have the Word of Faith but the principles and results are the same. Justified materialism and outwards signs of success with the inward man being full of dead bones. Jesus called such people snakes and vipers, but we can't do that because it is not loving. :roll:

Yes -- I have considered the whole council of God and I beleive very striongly that the purpsoe driven church preaches a false gospel and develops a philosphy of nan achiving religious ends. No wrath for the proud, grace to the humble. No pray an follow the Spirit. Yep - tare -- no fruit.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/12/4 0:26Profile
nowayout
Member



Joined: 2005/10/6
Posts: 8


 Re:

Ha!
Well said sir, very well said. I suppose i was playing a bit of "devil's adcovate" by asking the questions that have both been asked to me and that some have wanted to ask in this forum.

i humbly repent for any accusatory statments that were made and thank you for the correction and for sharing your knowledge of the scriptutes. This has given me the abitily now to answer questions that others have asked.

1 statment brough it home, you called the PDL the Baptist Version of WOF. The sad truth? I can see that now. I can see where you are coming from.

Thanks for the insight i will use it as i contiune my journey toward eternity.

I also graceful bow out of SI for awhile, not that i have been a posting maniac, but i still have much to learn before attmempting to interject my opinion on these matters. God Bless.

 2005/12/5 8:39Profile









 Re: Purpose Driven Cult


Ho! Eli,

Hope you're still going to read round here and pitch in occasionally. :-)

 2005/12/5 10:34
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

:oops: Well, that is embarassing. Eli my friends you played devil's advocate very well. Consider a job as a posting actor. Salute and godspeed on your studies.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/12/5 18:19Profile





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