In my flesh, I would like to agree with you but I can't.
At this point, the anguish is temporal in my heart but I think that day will change, not only in my heart but yours as well. The anguish leads to intercession and I believe that principle still holds true.
It's much more than human grief. My first wife died and I've been to five funerals in the last three months. I know what grief is but this is different. It's God's anguish. I literally thought I was doing to die in the prayer closet, the pain was much more than anything I've ever experienced.
Look at Hebrews 7:24-25 referring to Jesus "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
So the anguish Jesus experienced before the crucification is ongoing but it's through his intercession.
The Holy Spirit has this same anguish as well. Look at Romans 8:26-27 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
The anguish doesn't humble our hearts. To humble oneself has to be a conscious (i.e. intentional) choice. James 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. 1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
The Lord God will humble us only if refuse to humble ourselves and I have walked through being humbled but it's first a choice before the discipline comes.
The fire simply comes as we lay everything down on the altar. It's the fire of God, not something that is conjured up through some type of emotion or feeling.
I'm seeking a deeper understanding of this in the spirit and my understanding is somewhat limited because I'm just beginning to walk this out.
| 2005/11/23 15:22||Profile|
I think we are on the same page Ed, but still not.
I see where your coming from, nor can I defend either stance (yours or mine). The only way I can judge this 'anguish' is by personal experience as of today. Hopefully, God will give insight to some beloved saint, you- I - or someone else, so that we may all become more learned on this subject.
| 2005/11/23 23:16|
I totally agree with you brother.
I think we learn it as we walk on this narrow path with Jesus. It certainly is a straight road and I'm oftentimes surprised by the things the Holy Spirit shows me.
I'm willing to learn from you or anyone else as the Holy Spirit leads. I think the Lord wants our hearts so soft that whatever He wants us to do, we will do with great thankfulness of heart and quick.
One of my pastors said that Jesus is looking for "instant obedience" and it's so true.
I trust Jesus to lead you Joshua on this path! :-(
| 2005/11/24 23:09||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
i know the grief you're talking about as the Lord has been merciful enough to me to allow me to experience this. This was a revelation of the Lord's grief concerning my own sins and rebellion and then the Lord revealed it to me that this was multiplied billions of times over to account for the sins of eveyone else. now the Lord iddn't lay all that grief on me but the anguish he let me feel concerning my own sins was excruciating. with this the Lord has made it so i am compelled to confess of my sins and repent and also to pray for others also that they may be made aware of the grief that sin causes the Lord.
the Lord makes it so we shed tears of anguish over these things because He also sheds such tears. He wants us to know how He feels so that we can be sensitive to Him and respond in the way He would have us respond. let us fall on our faces and repent, repent and repent some more.AMEN
| 2005/11/25 21:18||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Anguish|
I think the anguish, isn't supposed to be ongoing.
It's much more than human grief.
The anguish leads to intercession and I believe that principle still holds true.
Bunched those together for the contrast. One day I will find this section of thoughts from Charles Spurgeon that recall roughly, that he suffered from a lot of depression and am quite sure that this anguish was something of it, more than of a 'clinical' sort, though there was both and he suffered from many ailments. The vague quote that has stuck all these years was something to the effect of feeling the Lords Manifest Presence, that those days "[i]were like precious gold to me[/i]". And the recollection was that they were rare. Without stretching that too far, the reason I guess it has stuck so deeply is in the similarities.
[i]"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.[/i]"
The times when the indescribable Presence of the Lord is so overwhelming, the peace and contentment and understanding... There is nothing in all of life in comparison. The times when it is evident come instantly to mind, this time last year was one, though it was in various stages of ... intensity? Had been thrust into a new and foreign situation, a new job with a lot of commotion and responsibility, I was in over my head by a mile and yet... I could say that I was no longer "Practicing" the Presence of God in the sense of prayer, prayer was oxygen and blood and as Wilkerson put it in this particular message; "Lord, if you don't help me..."
But it was at Christmas time, problems at home, my wife was throughly despondent and wanted nothing to do with Christmas, my head was reeling, attempting to finish an old job while carrying the new, beyond exhaustion, spiritually and emotionally ... spent. And then there was the Christmas shopping to do... All of it. To go out on the eve of Christmas, with the hordes and even more madness and...
I will never forget it, the sense of the Lord was so precious and overwhelming I thought I would breakdown and cry right there in the mall with tears of joy. Everything had a sense of ease and peace, the love that welled up in my spirit for my family and even for those that I saw rushing about, I began to pray for every eye I met, not a care in the world, everything just fell off. If there was ever a time that I might have stood up and open air preached of the Love of God for the souls He created... It would have been a strange wonder, in hindsight it is easier to give words of expression to it, at the time it would have been something I am sure to see this fool standing there crying, dumbfounded and rendered speechless. Just the memory of it! One day saints this will be the norm and not the exception...
How well this size's up with what Ed is trying to express I do not know, the contrast is that these times are rare indeed and the former much more common, even if they vacillate in intensity. I would appeal back to Romans passages above.
| 2005/11/26 10:26||Profile|