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jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

GF,

Thanks for the clarification. I do see things a bit differently though.If repentance was necessary to understand the cross as you say,then you make salvation a work. You should follow the biblical example of Peter and Paul.

In Acts 2:14-38 Peters first sermon did not harp on the law or mans need for a savior, he told the Jews that Jesus was the one the prophets spoke of, that He was crucified(by them), rose again, and poured forth the Holy Spirit that they were witnessing.

When they heard that, THEN they were convicted THEN they asked "what shall we do?" After they were convicted merely through the preaching of the cross THEN Peter said "Repent and be baptized"

Not convinced?

Acts 10:34-44

Opening his mouth, Peter said:
I most certainly understand that God is not one to show partiality,

but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF PEACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST(He is Lord of all)

you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.

You know of Jesus of Nazerth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him on a cross.

God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

not to all people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him recieves forgiveness of sins

While Peter WAS STILL SPEAKING THE WORD THE HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON ALL THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."

No preaching of the ten commandments, or of repentance, just believing in Him for the forgiveness of sins. The listeners did not DO anything in this example but receive the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Good News.

I could give more examples but my point is there is no formula, God can choose however he wants to convert people, I know this from my own experience.

As far as seeing other Christians living in sin, you know what Jesus said about that, take it to him in private, take a witness, take him before the church etc...
If your church doesn't understand what sin is, find another church! But there is no point in fretting about it, lawlessness will increase, false prophets will arise.
Just a friendly reminder, (because I have seen this in myself so often), that when we look at the sin of others (Christians or not) we (or at least I) totally forget that we are guilty too! So when you judge, don't condemn.

 2005/11/20 23:39Profile









 Re: Two fold - ? and something happening

Hi jimbob,

I don't think you're comparing like with like, here. The whole of Israel had heard of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ [i][b]and[/i][/b], more importantly, was completely familiar with the Law. Jesus died at the time of the evening sacrifice. Who could have forgotten what accompanied that - the sun disappearing for three hours at midday, an earthquake, the veil in the temple being rent from top to bottom, the dead being seen by many witnesses after the resurrection?

Two thousand years later, I think any evangelist is entitled to tell an unsaved person what God's standard requires and that we all fall short of it without faith in Christ's work and the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Just a friendly reminder, (because I have seen this in myself so often), that when we look at the sin of others (Christians or not) we (or at least I) totally forget that we are guilty too! So when you judge, don't condemn.

I like this sentence but would also condemn if one claiming to be a Christian is blantantly living as an unbeliever. Otherwise, how is the world to know that we know the difference?

 2005/11/21 2:47
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

Hey, jimbob.

I've gotta say, that I think I'm right along side with dorcas on this one. I think we're speaking the same thing, but I'll try to clear it up some more with you.

First of all, though, I completely agree with you, that salvation is of Faith alone, without works. But, what do you think about James 2? I'm looking at the section on faith and deeds. He says, "Faith without deeds is dead".

While Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear, "For by grace thou hast been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

I agree that without faith, you've got nothing. But if there are not deeds that accompany your faith, because of that faith, you have a false faith, which is preached more often than you might realize.

Again, like dorcas said, look at the audiences that Paul and the disciples were preaching to: It was Jews! They knew the Law. They had been raised understanding the wrath of God, and knowing to fear the Lord, so it was a revelation to receive His grace.

There's some columns that discuss the use of the Law in evangelism around here. And having seen the false message that is commonly preached- one that offers the gifts of God as a "prime product, and not as a by-product" as Paris Reidhead says, is really sad. Just look around, though. As Leonard Ravenhill would say, "What are you saved from? Are you saved from lust? Are you saved from sin? Come on, what are you saved from?"

Basically, there's a message that says, "You don't want to go to that stinking, rotten, nasty Hell, do you? Well, accept Jesus so you can be saved." Again, as Paris Reidhead said. It's nothing more than humanism, and demands nothing from the believer.

But, rather, once you see yourself as a sinner, and you really understand the Cross and Grace, it will give you a reason to really serve the Lord in your life. God is no longer a ticket to happiness, but a just creator worth serving.

Now, does God intend to make us happy? Of course! But again, "as a by-product, and not a prime-product."

Again, listen to "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", and "Hell's Best Kept Secret," by Paris Reidhead, and Ray Comfort, respectively. I think they could explain it much better than I can. I'm not always the most articulate writer. ;-)

Grace and Peace...

 2005/11/21 4:46Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

GF,

Apparently the Jews didn't know the law that well,or they would not have crucified their messiah.

Read Pauls sermon on mars hill Acts 17:22-34, again, he did not hammer on the law to these people (Gentiles).

I went to all the trouble of typing out that sermon of Peters(with two fingers)and I guess you don't get it, no formulas!

Try telling people what Christ has done for you, His death, resurrection, and His abiding Spirit dwelling within you, and leave the convicting of sin to the Holy Spirit, thats His job, not yours.

 2005/11/21 9:41Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Dorcas,

Did you read the paragraph I wrote above the one you quoted?

You would CONDEMN someone? We are told to cut someone off from fellowship as a last resort, condemning is for God alone to do, Jesus came not to condemn but to save.

Maybe let's quit drinking from the Paris R, David W. and Ray C. coolaid punch bowl for a while a try living by Grace.

 2005/11/21 9:59Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob
the Lord has had me start reading through the Acts and this

Quote:
While Peter WAS STILL SPEAKING THE WORD THE HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON ALL THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."



Quote:
No preaching of the ten commandments, or of repentance, just believing in Him for the forgiveness of sins. The listeners did not DO anything in this example but receive the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Good News.



didn't seem to add up.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[b]37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.[/b]

The Holy Spirit did not come to the people Peter was speaking to while he was still talking. Peter testified that Christ was indeed the Messiah (vs36 of Acts 2) and then it says in vs 37 [b]37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [/b]

they were convicted of their sin. and asked what they ought to do now. Peter replied [b]38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/b] Being convicted of sin makes us aware of the need for a saviour. Repentance acknowledges the work of that saviour and cleanses us from our sin making us a fitting temple for the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can't come into a dirty temple. Peter didn't say anything directly about the 10 commandments except that the people were guilty of killing Jesus (which is a violation of thou shalt not kill) but that led to convivtion, which led to repentance which led to baptism which led to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Peter spoke of the need for repentance then baptism. i say again the people were first convicted of their sin, repented of their sin and were baptized [i]and then and only then[/i] did they receive the Holy Ghost. not only that but in vs 41 it says [b] 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.[/b]

you wrote
Quote:
I could give more examples but my point is there is no formula, God can choose however he wants to convert people, I know this from my own experience.



but the above is the formula for salvation. one must be convicted of sin or else one isn't even aware of the need for salavation. without that knowledge, the gospel is foolishness. then one must repent, then be baptized.

i see the word "judge" thrown about a lot by people, most times out of context. when God judges, He tries by fire to see what manner of work it is or He is punishing sin. When Christ said don't judge lest you be judged yourself, He was saying don't go about seeing a crime and punishing it as you see fit because you will be punished too by the same measure when your turn comes. that is way different from pointing out error or saying that a brother or sister is wrong about something. One can tell a tree by the fruit it bears and if a pear tree is growing peaches, something is off and needs fixing...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/11/21 10:17Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob

Quote:
Apparently the Jews didn't know the law that well,or they would not have crucified their messiah.



if the Jews hadn't killed Christ we all would be hellbound so someone had to do it :-? However God still gave the ones who condemned Christ to die opportunity to repent of that. always when Peter preached the gospel the Holy Spirit led him to point out sin (for the need of salvation) repentance (for the working/acceptance of salvation) and baptism (for the outward showing of salvation) This was always repeated and the Lord added to their numbers daily: Acts 2 vs 47, Acts chapt 4 vs 4,

Quote:
Read Pauls sermon on mars hill Acts 17:22-34, again, he did not hammer on the law to these people (Gentiles).



Paul did say that these people were supersticious (practising idolatry a violation of the first commandment) this conviction of sin set the stage for the need of a saviour in Christ. in vs 30 paul says that they need to repent after which they had to be baptized. this is a recurring pattern which the Lord had set in place that men may be saved. if we deviate from this, men will not be saved. if we don't follow what the Holy Spirit's direction we will have no success in pleasing God at all.

Quote:
Try telling people what Christ has done for you, His death, resurrection, and His abiding Spirit dwelling within you, and leave the convicting of sin to the Holy Spirit, thats His job, not yours.



The Holy Spirit will always lead one to speak against sin and the need for repentance before baptism. if one isn't convicted of sin then salvation means nothing.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/11/21 10:46Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
If repentance was necessary to understand the cross as you say,then you make salvation a work.



I believe that is a statment that makes no sense. Let me use an example.

Imagine I am you boss. I tell you, "Stop working and just go home. And I will pay you." Would you get mad at me for telling to do 'works?' No way! I am telling to you stop doing something. How on earth can you say that repentance is a work when repentance screams, "Stop doing what you are doing!!" I do acknowledge that if you stop one thing, it is impossible not to do another. It's impossible to do absolutly nothing. Sitting is something.

When you repent you stop doing what you are doing, and inturn start doing something else. Ofcourse you won't do anything else unless you have a new heart.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: to understand what the cross did you do not have to repent, but to have salvation you do. You have to know what the cross did before you will repent and trust in grace.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/11/21 10:58Profile









 Re: Two fold - ? and something happening

Hi jimbob,

I appreciate your efforts with two fingers, but there is an easier way...

[url=http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm?seq=1&version=nasb&version=kjv&version=cev&version=tev&StringToSearch=john+1%3A12&FgColor=0&BkColor=6&FontName=1&LargerFont=1&MultiSea=1&ColorForHighlight=3&FontForHighlight=1&HighlightStyle=1]http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm?seq=1&version=nasb&version=kjv&version=cev&version=tev&StringToSearch=john+1%3A12&FgColor=0&BkColor=6&FontName=1&LargerFont=1&MultiSea=1&ColorForHighlight=3&FontForHighlight=1&HighlightStyle=1[/url]

That's a long URL because it will open up at the screen where you can choose the Bible version you want to search. Here is the home page.

[url=http://www.olivetree.com]http://www.olivetree.com[/url]

Now choose Bible Search and then an underlined link. In fact, both links lead to the same screen.

 2005/11/21 12:21









 Re: Two fold - ? and something happening

jimbob said

Quote:
Read Pauls sermon on mars hill Acts 17:22-34, again, he did not hammer on the law to these people (Gentiles).

Hi bro,

Indeed, but, he homed in on three other important anchors.

First, he was speaking in a place where anyone with new doctrine or something to announce or dispute, could go and present their 'idea' to the assembled intellects.

Then, he picked up on the fact there was a 'god' they already worshipped whose nature they knew nothing about.

Thirdly, he picked up on the fact they already believed people are 'the offspring of God' - spoken of by their poets - that is, by the writers that the entire society already knew about.

So, although his sermon is short, he has tied his listeners in by referring to their own points of reference... then, he claims to have an important piece of information about this God (from whom they are descended) and explains why they should be interested.

His entire declaration is only [u]six sentences long[/u], and in what remains to him after he has established the territory, he mentions [b]repentance, judgement, the Man whom He (God) has chosen to be Judge and the resurrection of the dead[/b].

In other words, he fairly took the ground from under their feet, with the second half of his speech. And he moved through that ground so fast, no-one had time to lose interest!

He refers to their ignorance, whereas, Peter does the opposite.

Earlier today I was reading this, and it strikes me as a very important part of the New Testament which all of us should understand properly.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, [b][u]All[/u] these things shall come upon [u]this generation[/u][/b].

The reason they crucified Him was their hypocrisy, their blindness, and their [b]un[/b]repentance despite many opportunities to soften to God's word.

We know this outcome was known to God. One cannot but have sympathy with the way Peter felt about Jesus crucifixion. The fact is, he was a passenger in history as much as Jesus was. There was nothing he could do to prevent the crucifixion. He (Peter) was as much a cause of the reason for it as any of us are....

And Jesus is still revealed as the Messiah to those for whom He came.

 2005/11/21 12:41





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