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jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

DD,

Jesus did the dying for us! In Him we die to the world, you and I in and of ourselves don't die to the world. Death before life? God did not create life from death my friend.

You, by yourself will never die to the world,the self, or sin. Jesus did this for you, that is justification through faith!

Did you come to Christ because you thought he might help you overcome sin and get to heaven? Or did you come to Christ because He paid the penalty for your sins?

 2005/11/20 7:21Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

Hi..
:Did you come to Christ because you thought he might help you overcome sin and get to heaven? Or did you come to Christ because He paid the penalty for your sins?" Neither....Christ called me.Of myself i am nothing.

"Jesus did the dying for us! In Him we die to the world, you and I in and of ourselves don't die to the world. Death before life? God did not create life from death my friend..".. The first words of John the baptist and Christ was..repent....is this not a form of death.Death of the old self and rebirth through the spirit?God does create life from the dead. He came for sinners.{leagal dead}and brought with him immortality.

You, by yourself will never die to the world,the self, or sin. Jesus did this for you, that is justification through faith!Yes i agree with this statement.

Are you trying to separate works and faith?Is baptism not a token of death? The topic is immortality, not justification and santification.Give me a break friend.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


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Trevor Collins

 2005/11/20 8:45Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

DD,

Do you have the power in and of yourself to repent? You admit you were dead, how does a dead man repent?

Is baptism a token that you offer to God, or is it a sign that God has done something for you?

 2005/11/20 9:22Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

Hi jimbob . as to your first question..no.So that would answer your second part of that question.Repentance would be by grace alone after the calling.
A token..no..what a question!Baptism would be a outward declaration of your death with Christ and resurection to a new birth.
6For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


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Trevor Collins

 2005/11/20 12:28Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

Now a question for you..is man's soul immortal or not? I am not refering to a christian's soul. KJV verses please.


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Trevor Collins

 2005/11/20 12:37Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Dancing with death

Just a couple of sideways comments for a moment.

Deathdancer, really appreciated your intro earlier, that you were a farmer and not 'schooled' but a lover of Theology...
Will spare the definition but, welcome to the club! In one sense that is what goes on here, to try and grapple with ourselves and our understanding and all that the Lord would have us to understand. Theology is the study of God and maybe true Theology is when it breaks in past our minds and gets down into the marrow and reverses itself, Gods study of us .. That's likely wrought with problems but...

Death and life! Well you have a kindred spirit here brother, death is something that I find of ultimate importance and it is always before my thinking, just not perhaps in the way that might sound... Eternity as well, but just a nod towards acknowledgement here. Think you will find much help towards growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord through all the resources present here, let us know if we can be of any help.

Quote:
Did you come to Christ because you thought he might help you overcome sin and get to heaven? Or did you come to Christ because He paid the penalty for your sins?"



Quote:
Neither....Christ called me.Of myself i am nothing.


Great answer!

Pardon the interruption.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/11/20 13:23Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

DD,

I did not refer to baptism as a token, I was quoting you, I refer to it as a sacrament, something God is declaring He has done for me, not what I have done for Him.

Now on to your original question, does unregenerate man have an immortal soul?

By the way, I don't have a KJV so NAS will have to do.

Mark 9:43-44 " If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; its is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Rev. 14:11 " And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image..."

Rev. 20:10 "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

What do you deduce from the above verses?

 2005/11/21 10:16Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

hi jimbob , Quote..And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. This verse takes me back to Isaiah 66;24 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. KJV.Take note of the word carcases.
Rev 14;11..the most difficult verse in the bible for me at this point.how i have struggled over it! A poor excuse at this time would be a sort of time line which i don't understand.Later on in Rev 20 we get the judgement, vs 13and 14. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire and later in v 15 those not in the book of life.This would take me back to Isaiah 66;24.Perhaps your comment on this?

Rev. 20:10.....the devil, beast and false profit don't fit into the species mankind?

if this is a poor answer to your question please excuse me.....thankfully salvation is not based on ones knowledge or lack thereof.

ok.from my side ..
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. kjv.Gen 2 '17 The fall of man...death to him physically and death to his soul etc.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
. gen 3 '22 kjv.. .The loss of immortality.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Rev 22'14..restoration of immortality to the saved.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10 '28...Christ will kill the soul.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:..gen 3'4. The greatest lie ever told...and the world bought it.'Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:Isaiah 28 '15
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die..Eze 18'4
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18'20
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.Ez 18'21..surely reference to the soul and not the body,for we all are appointed to die.
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Clearly mankind does not have eternal life.
There are many references to eternal life and everlasting life .On the otherhand i dont see death qualified.It is just refered to as death..it needs no explanation. So if you kick the dog and it moves it is alive and if it doesn't move it is dead. So who started this nonsense of saying death means separation?
Is death not the opposite of life.?
Thanks for taking me up on this issue.If mankind's soul is not immortal it has huge complications as i am sure you can imagine. cheers.


_________________
Trevor Collins

 2005/11/21 17:50Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

DD, When I first became a Christian I fell in with the Seventh Day Adventist, they taught me about "soul sleep" and the annihilation of the soul of the unsaved at judgement. I struggled with the Revelation verses we have noted, and concluded they (SDA) were wrong.

The "beast" as I interpret Rev. would be the world system, which is made up of men, "the mark is the mark of a man." So the beast is atleast one man.

The false prophet, well there are many false prophets and they too are all men, so I would assume this one would be also.

I also have a question on the resurrection of the unjust, if they don't have a soul out there somewhere in a holding place (such as hades) how will their souls be reunited with their bodies to stand before the final judgment?

I don't have the answers, I am an airplane mechanic, I could probably fix your farm tractor but I don't think I can solve this question.

Bob

 2005/11/22 4:41Profile
deathdancer
Member



Joined: 2005/11/19
Posts: 33
South Africa

 Re:

Hi . ...your question on the state of the dead

4For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool...... Whats good enough for David is good enough for me..
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.John 3;13
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 12 '11

2And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 1
This would be my opinion of the dead .
I was raised a presbyterian and go along with most of their doctrines.These days they have denied a lot of their roots so i am now ashamed to be associated with them. They have no policy on faggots and other issues, like many other churches. I left the church for many years because of the confusion and jelly fish attitude of the leadership. i still have great problems with this and open my big mouth on many occasions.However i have since realised that this withdrawal is not the route to go and i attend services fairly often.
The preachers here seem to have lost their passion ,( if they ever had it).and everything is so politically correct and diplomatic it makes me sick. Where are the Knoxes, Calvins, Whitefields of old?...Hey man are you the only guy out there willing to bat with me on this issue? Where are the pharisees,scribes,and professors? I might be blacklisted after this ,but thanks for your input. cheers friend.


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Trevor Collins

 2005/11/22 15:44Profile





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