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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Evolution Trial Arguments End

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 Re: death

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

Josh, spiritual death is caused by sin. Physical death has always been a part of the cycle of life.

Bubbaguy

 2005/11/9 13:27
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Why do people die? Did God create men to die?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/11/9 15:34Profile
JFEdgar
Member



Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re: Evolution Trial Arguments End

Hey BubbaGuy,
If I could share a short testimony of my own salvation...
My life started as the life of a skeptic. At a very young age my Dad taught us that man came from apes. By the time I was in 6th grade I had concluded that there was no God, that Science is the only trustworthy source of information, and was the only thing that would "save" the human race, and from there began to gather facts about evolution to use against those 'ignorant' Christians. I would argue for hours online against people who believe in God, and especially against creationist Christians, assuming they were totally ignorant (in many cases they were). When presented with a strong argument I would immediately throw it out, because "most scientists believe in evolution" anyway, so there was no reason to trust this Christian over scientists. Right?

Well, after a number of years of being an atheist I was confronted with Intelligent Design theory, and saw the truth in it. I saw that many intelligent, educated people believe in this, and read much about it. I soon came to the conclusion that there was a God. It was around this time, i believe, that I found salvation. I got on my knee's and prayed something similar to "God, whoever you are, whatever you are, please show me who you are, what the truth is, and what you want from me". Well, He led me to Christ.

However, I wasnt an ID believer for long. Since I had grown up on Science, I was still very much into it for about a year after my salvation. I still read much science and philosophy, and especially that involving the evolution/ID/creationist debate. As I researched, I found an incredible bias among those scientists who promoted old-earth evolution, and realized the power Satan had over all secular movements, whether it be the government, philosophy, science or false religion. I realized that Science itself can only be true, if you believe the underlying philosophy that it is founded upon. I now am convinced in the young-earth theory because of Scripture, and because of how unreliable science is as a means to truth. If you dont mind, one of the books that introduced me to this, and opened my mind to the possibility of a young-earth was the book "In Six Days, why 50 Scientists choose to believe in Creation", by John F Ashton. It was able to open my mind because I found that there were many scientists (all of the scientists in this book are practicing scientists who have PhD's) who rejected the old-age earth theory and even Intelligent Design.

However, as I have grown as a Christian I have moved far away from Philosophy and science, realizing how vain they are in the long run. As I have moved closer to Jesus, I see those things as mere darkness. I do not want darkness in my life anymore, only the light of Jesus. "What fellowship hath light with darkness?". How can one who loves the light stand to spend so much time studying such pointless things?

My real concern here, you see, is not whether you believe in old-earth or young-earth, but where you focus is. It seems that nearly every post I have seen of yours is focused on issues such as this. Why is your focus here, rather than on the light of Jesus, on His glory, on His majesty, on Him and His face alone? In Titus it seems that paul defines a heretic, not as one necesarily having a different opinion, but as one who creates strife over a small issue. I am not accusing you of being a heretic, but I have learned that it is far more important to encourage one another and have fellowship on those things that we have in common; mainly, the New Birth and the glorious Life of Jesus in us. These issues can come up, but they should never be the focus. When they do come up, I believe it is important for each side to come to the other with respect and humility... not pushing the others, or provoking (except to good works!), not creating strife over a small issue, but gaining understanding through it. Where is your focus? "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Where is your heart, where is your focus? Is your focus on the glorious Life of Christ? Or is it on a contentious, pseudo-philosophical/theological issue which has few practical applications?

I want you to know, I say these things in total love. I want to provoke you to have a deeper focus, and the focus that God has. Is God's heart for everyone to be doctrinally/scientifically/politically correct about the first 11 chapters of Genesis? Or is His heart for His people to be more like Christ, to know Him more, to love and adore Him, to glorify Him, to bear the fruits of the Spirit and to show Christ to the world through our lives?


_________________
Joe E

 2005/11/9 15:41Profile









 Re: your post

Dear JFEdgar,

Thank you for your post and your concern.

I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends (often called Quakers) and a Christian. (See, http://www.quaker.org for info on Quakers.) I value the Bible as it is a testimony of believers in Christ and provides the background and context for His life, death and resurrection. But I think that, in the way people of many cultures tell stories about their origins using parable, Genesis is a story that underpins the Hebrew peoples relations with God. ANd I don't think it was written to be taken literally, but to put forth truths about man's relationship with his Creator.

The science of geology clearly shows a succession of ages in the earth that can only be explained by an old earth (unless you claim that God made the earth and universe to look old when it isn't, which makes me wonder why God would deceive us.) The fossil record clearly shows a progression of life forms. Light from distant stars also clearly shows the age of the universe, as it has taken millions of years to reach the earth from the point of origin.

There is truth in science and truth in the Bible. The problem is reconciling them (and I think this is part of God's plan; that faith shouldn't be too pat, too easy and should cause us to examine the creation and ourselves thoroughly.) Some scientists make the error of assuming that only one can be true, as do fundamentalist Christians, and deny one set of truths in order to hold up the other. Once you have bought into this, its hard to consider the other side, because you believe it is in opposition to the set of truths you have accepted. I don't want to make that mistake.

Regarding Christ, He is of paramount importance in my life. The examples He set for us and His teaching show us the way to make a better world. (Love your enemies is a practical approach to world peace.) His sacrifice is the basis of our salvation.

quote: "Is your focus on the glorious Life of Christ? Or is it on a contentious, pseudo-philosophical/theological issue which has few practical applications?"

I think understanding the universe, the earth, and our relationship with God has many practical applications.

I'd like to discuss this more, however the company I work for (Friends Committee on National Legislation) is having its annual meeting from tomorrow through first day and I will not be able to get back on line until next 4th day (Wednesday for those who don't mind the days of the week being named after false gods.)

I'll be back on line then.

Bub

PS. I want to thank Greg and everyone who runs this site. I have learned alot and have been prompted many times to examine my beliefs. I also appreciate the wealth of experience in the participants.


PSS. Here's a link to one liberal Quaker's (Chuck Fager) take on the Bible. http://www.quaker.org/bible-study/
(Note: Chuck is controversial even among liberal Quakers. so don't assume I am endorsing his position, but am only providing it as one example.)

 2005/11/9 16:50
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

Bubbaguy:

Quote:
I want to thank Greg and everyone who runs this site. I have learned alot and have been prompted many times to examine my beliefs. I also appreciate the wealth of experience in the participants.



Well here is something we can agree on my friend ;-), ill be honest i havent debated many theistic evolutionists in my time ive just read rebuttals of arguments used, as a young earth creationist i have read many articles on the importance of a literal Genesis and where as i do think it is important i wouldn't go so far as to say it is pivotal to the salvation message, ive even heard people speak of the "creation/gospel" message, this i believe is taking creationism too far, some people will argue a literal Genesis is foundational to show people the origin of sin and thus the need for salvation, therefore if you can convince someone they are a descendent of a literal Adam then you can show them the need for a Saviour, but i am also aware/afraid of reasoning someone into being a christian (not you, i mean people on the streets), let us not forget that salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit through conviction not argument.

I believe it is important to have answers for people on this issue, but at the end of the day [u]if you can be argued into something, you can be argued out of it[/u], thus argument does have it's place but we should never forget we are saved by grace [b]through faith[/b], not reason or arguement.

so thank you for your input into this topic too Bubb i look forward to reading more of your stuff.

God bless

matt


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matt

 2005/11/9 17:14Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike
preach on bro...you know the story of creation is simple enough to understand. the earth/universe was created in 6 days and on the 7th God rested. seems simple enough to me. it seems we as people have some weird tendancy/desire/fascination with complicating the (insert expression here)out of things which are really simple to understand. it seems to me that evolution is an exceedingly creative way of explaining something which God simply laid out in genesis...it's a lot harder to swallow this evolution stuff than to accept creation as stated in genesis, i prefer the latter...a no brainer vs brain frier...

it seems to me we would like to believer any other explanation than the obvious, anything to hold onto our foolishness rather than repent before a Holy God.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/11/10 1:59Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The science of geology clearly shows a succession of ages in the earth that can only be explained by an old earth (unless you claim that God made the earth and universe to look old when it isn't, which makes me wonder why God would deceive us.) The fossil record clearly shows a progression of life forms.



Can you expound on that? What proof?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/11/10 8:57Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Mans wisdom vs ...

Hi IRONMAN,

Wasn't sure if all that came out as a tirade or otherwise yet touched on this a bit in the other thread on the godhead... Think this is all quite normal and healthy to a point, just the 'camps' that get setup, the labeling and then the presumptions, "If you believe 'A' then you are a part of _____" and on it goes, everything from politics to denominations to all kinds of neat boxes to be squeezed into. We all do it to some extent and sometimes it's a necessary 'evil' to coin the phrase... I guess the larger looming questions are, are we making statements of fact based on a theory or a hypothesis? Or are we honest enough [u]upfront[/u] to state that "I am looking at all these observable things and it is leading me in this direction"? It all can get so bogged down in rhetoric that assumptions became 'facts' in peoples minds.

"To the law and the testimony" may be a good post to start. To look back and for instance note all the times Jesus appealed to "it is written", to scripture being quoted and alluded to (Paul seemed to do this a bit). There is a cohesiveness to the canon of scripture despite the 'apparent contradictions', it's an old concept, easily dismissed I know, not trying to be flippant in the least.

Can appreciate our friend Bubba's acknowledgment here to a point, but having him here for some time in this evolutionary discussion which at times is as stunted as the apes that man came come from are now experiencing :-D ....

Where am I going with this... This is what keeps coming to bear.

Things unseen.

2Co 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

We wrestle not...
Out of the heart proceed...
The creation groans...

Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Maybe it is just the particular precipice one is standing on and gazing out from. Personally, the biggest and starting point is from a vantage of death. Looking at things not entirely but from 'All of life is worked out back-words', in that sense. If we were to start there even in these discussions what does a scientist have to say about [i]that[/i]? Not to mock him, but to face it. What is your explanation for death and what are you going to do about that in light of all this reverse engineering of observable things?

It's a bit to think about if it could be incorporated into all this searching and unearthing of bones and dust and minerals. Is it just sport, hobby, 'intellect'? Maybe it does need to be fully explored until a satisfactory 'answer' is given, as was mentioned by the brother here who studied through much of this.

Seems like it's giving away the ending of the book but hard to escape the point that I think is trying to be enforced; He is God, we are creatures, beautiful and miserable, rebellious and redeemable (Praise God!) evil and yet capable of going home, back to the Father. The whole thing eventually settles out into the wonderful humbling of ourselves and the great exalting of God in His Holiness. He is Holy. "Whole". Perfect in all His ways. It's the most reasonable 'answer' to all our squirmings and questionings, reasonings, contentions...

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

The sentiment here;

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/11/10 10:28Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: Mans wisdom vs ...

bro mike
you know i thank the Lord he dealt with me as He did otherwise i would have said "here goes mike on another tirade... :-P "bro i felt what you said in your post before this though. it seems to me that we would like any other explanation than the obvious for how things are case in point evolution. there is no scientific evidence (skeletal records for example) of animals in the middle of changing from one to another or anything else really that backs this whole evolution thing up. as far as i am concerned it's another tool of the enemy to get our eyes off God. as the scripture go, they also can descern the thoughts and intents of the hearts of men so if we look for contadictions, we find them.

Quote:
It's a bit to think about if it could be incorporated into all this searching and unearthing of bones and dust and minerals. Is it just sport, hobby, 'intellect'? Maybe it does need to be fully explored until a satisfactory 'answer' is given, as was mentioned by the brother here who studied through much of this.



in reading the testimony of brother jfedgar concerning this i think at the end of the day, one must search out these things for himself and let God deal with him.

Quote:
Seems like it's giving away the ending of the book but hard to escape the point that I think is trying to be enforced; He is God, we are creatures, beautiful and miserable, rebellious and redeemable (Praise God!) evil and yet capable of going home, back to the Father. The whole thing eventually settles out into the wonderful humbling of ourselves and the great exalting of God in His Holiness. He is Holy. "Whole". Perfect in all His ways. It's the most reasonable 'answer' to all our squirmings and questionings, reasonings, contentions...



and in humbling ourselves before a Holy God, our foolishnesses can be revealed to us. a great part of our struggling with God has to do with our pride and unwillingness to yeild to Him and yield things which we hold dear.

Quote:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



at the end of the day and indeed on that last day of judgement none shall have any excuse to deny God in His Holiness and sovereignty.fall shall confess Christ is Lord, for those that believe it will be a most joyous occasion for those whose vanities and imaginings lead them away from God they too will confess, only in hell. let us humble ourselves before the Lord, repent and turn to Him wholly lest we end up like the latter...


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Farai Bamu

 2005/11/10 23:45Profile





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