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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Question: Creation of Jesus

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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Question: Creation of Jesus

Did God create Jesus?

Thanks,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/28 11:32Profile
Conqueror
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re: Question: Creation of Jesus

NO!

Jesus is God! He has always been and always will be.

The Triune God has always been existence. Always. "Always" is a misnomer. It implies time. God is outside of created time so we can even fit into the English language that infinity and eternity of God.




 2005/10/28 12:35Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Question: Creation of Jesus

beenblake,

In association with your other thread/question ...

Trinity Debate: Need Help
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7805&forum=36#59346

God (1+2 +3 = 1) is Father (1), Son = Word (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... Whether revealed seperately or collectively as One Spirit all three are God, and all three are alpha and omega none having a beginning or an ending ... This is my take on the subject ...

John.1: 1-5 - In the beginning was the Word (2), and the Word (2) was with God (1 & 3), and the Word (2) was God (with 1 & 3). The same (2) was in the beginning with God(1 & 3). All things were made by Him (2); and without Him (2) was not any thing made that was made (by 1,2 & 3). In Him (2) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When i was a kid i couldn't comprehend this, as an adult Christian i don't even try ... His Word says it, and that's all i need to grasp it by faith ... Amen ... :-D

 2005/10/28 13:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Question: Creation of Jesus

Quote:
Did God create Jesus?


'Jesus' is the result of the Word becoming Flesh and dwelling among us. This was an 'act of God' but the God who acted was the God who came. Jesus is an earth-time name which the Word chose. In the glory He retains His manhood and hence his name.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/28 13:34Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

I guess I should have prefaced the question with: I believe Jesus is God and that God did not create Jesus.

I am looking for ways on how to explain this to others using the bible and common sense.

Thanks for sharing,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/28 14:02Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

How would you respond to this scripture:

Proverbs 8:22 (KJ)
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old:

The word possessed in the Hebrew is "Qanah."

Definition
1. to get, acquire, create, buy, possess
(Qal)
a. to get, acquire, obtain 1a
b. of God originating, creating, redeeming His people 1a
1. possessor 1a
c. of Eve acquiring 1a
d. of acquiring knowledge, wisdom
1. to buy

The Hebrew lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon;

In this chapter of proverbs, Solomon is talking about wisdom. In this scripture, Wisdom is actually speaking as if a person. This, of course, is the Word of God which we know is Jesus Christ. And thus, this scripture is referring to Jesus. If you read the whole of Proverbs chapter 8, you can see the reference to Christ as established by Paul in Colossians, and by John in the first chapter of John, and other places in the new testament.

This scripture has two parts that conflict with the Trinity. First of all, it suggests that Jesus was created by God. In fact, the New Revised Version of the bible translates the word "Qanah" as "created."

I do not believe that God created Jesus. I think this is a misinterpretation. What the scripture is really saying is God obtained or acquired His Word. The word "possessed" shows possession giving way to the claim that God's Word is His, and His alone. I do not think there is an appropriate word to suite what happened here. As a metaphor, saying that God's Word is the son of God, means that Christ is begotten of God. It doesn't mean God created Jesus, but that at some point, Christ was born, or as it says in the KJ and NASB, "brought forth."


Proverbs 8:24,25 (KJ)
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

However, this brings us to the second conflict. If God's Word was brought forth, then this conflicts with the argument that God's Word always was.

I kind of interpret it as saying "A time came when God spoke, and His Word went forth to do the will of God."

In my mind, this suggests that when God spoke, time came into existence. God's Word was "brought forth" which implies that there was a time when God's Word became active. And as such, time itself resulted???? (That's extremely speculative, I know.)

I guess you could say that God's Word was always with God, even thought God had not spoken. God's Word did not become known (or active) until God spoke. When God spoke, His word went forth.

When God's Word went forth, by His Word the heaven's and earth was created.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJ)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Since the first time I have read this scripture, the difference between God and Jesus is made known by two words: "in" and "by". This intrigues me. For it seems odd that we would say we are "in" God for we are really "in" Jesus. And so, this scripture seems to be talking about all of creation and not just humanity.

We were created "in" God and "by" Jesus. It does seem to make sense to me that we were created "by" Jesus who is God's Word. When God spoke, Jesus went forth to do God's will and create the universe.

I wonder, what do you all think about this? What are your responses?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/28 14:28Profile
Conqueror
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Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:1-2

I am not one who falls into the camp where they feel like they have to "persuade" people who Jesus is. Its just a matter of presenting the Law (so they can realize they are sinners), and that Jesus died to save them from their sin. Then its up to the Holy Spirit to bring conviction.

I have never met anyone who was "persuaded" to be a Christian.

 2005/10/28 14:30Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Conqueror,

Quote:
I have never met anyone who was "persuaded" to be a Christian.



Neither have I. The point is not to persuade someone into being a Christian, but to help them lead them into truth.

Before I was saved, I believed that Jesus died for my sins, I believed in forgiveness, I believed in everything the bible said. I did not believe Jesus is God because the bible did not say it. This kept me from turning to Jesus. Instead, I turned to the Father, who I knew to be Jehovah.

I thought Jesus was less than God and so I would always pray to Jehovah. I never prayed to Jesus, rather, I prayed through Jesus. I used to say that "In the name of Christ" at the end of a prayer was like a stamp on a letter. That is not true. To say, "In the name of Christ" is like saying "By the power of God."

This is crucial for if you do not believe Jesus is God, then how can He forgive your sins? You cannot humble yourself and repent at the throne of Jesus, if you don't think He is sitting on the throne or that He has the power to save you.

The night I was saved, I cried out to Jesus to save me. For the first time, I had bowed down to Christ.

I am not trying to force someone or persuade someone into believing. However, when someone is entangled into a web of lies, in order to bring them into truth, you first must start by getting them to question thier lies by showing them the truth. Before I was saved, it was my brother who made me question what I believed about Christ by debating with me every night for six months. I realize now that Christ was using Him to speak to me.

I do agree, though, that we cannot persuade someone into being a Christian.

Thank you for the encouragement and support.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/28 15:02Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

For me, the answer to all questions of this type is simply that God is not limited the way we are. Thus He is capable of seperating into seperate persons: Father, Son, Spirit, but also capable of creating things outside of Him: heaven, earth, us, etc.

I believe this as there are many Scriptures that support Jesus as God, and many that seem to show that Jesus has an obediance to the Father, the Holy Ghost to Jesus, etc. I think this does not disprove Jesus' Lordship, nor the deity of the Holy Ghost, but rather that God is capable of creating a world, and entering it, while remaining in heaven (Father), as well as being on earth (Son). So this obediance, and begetting, and servanthood, merely shows me that He is capable of following His own rules that He gave (Father), as well as eager to demonstrate Himself as an example (Jesus), not to mention ready and willing to help (Holy Ghost).

So the word must have breath to be heard, otherwise it is just ink. So what came forth from God was God's Word, ushered by his breath, the Spirit. He is capable of giving Himself, as well as creating something to give. The Son and Spirit show that He is loving toward man. He could have just stayed as Father, but laid everything out so that all could be with Him. This also shows that He shares in our sorrows and grief, as well as being the Most High. He has fulfilled everything that we could think up to say He should have done. He has offered Himself as our peer and servant, as well as Creator, provided we are obediant.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/10/28 19:52Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[b]Joh 20:28 -
Thomas answered, etc.[/b] - Those who deny the Godhead of Christ would have us to believe that these words are an exclamation of Thomas, made through surprise, and that they were addressed to the Father and not to Christ. Theodore of Mopsuestia was the first, I believe, who gave the words this turn; and the fifth Ecumenic council, held at Constantinople, anathematized him for it. This was not according to the spirit of the Gospel of God. However, a man must do violence to every rule of construction who can apply the address here to any but Christ. The text is plain: Jesus comes in - sees Thomas, and addresses him; desiring him to come to him, and put his finger into the print of the nails, etc. Thomas, perfectly satisfied of the reality of our Lord’s resurrection, says unto him, - My Lord! and My God! i.e. Thou art indeed the very same person, - my Lord whose disciple I have so long been; and thou art my God, henceforth the object of my religious adoration. Thomas was the first who gave the title of God to Jesus; and, by this glorious confession, made some amends for his former obstinate incredulity. It is worthy of remark, that from this time forward the whole of the disciples treated our Lord with the most supreme respect, never using that familiarity towards him which they had often used before. The resurrection from the dead gave them the fullest proof of the divinity of Christ. And this, indeed, is the use which St. John makes of this manifestation of Christ. See Joh_20:30, Joh_20:31. Bishop Pearce says here: “Observe that Thomas calls Jesus his God, and that Jesus does not reprove him for it, though probably it was the first time he was called so.” And, I would ask, could Jesus be jealous of the honor of the true God - could he be a prophet - could he be even an honest man, to permit his disciple to indulge in a mistake so monstrous and destructive, if it had been one?

Adam Clarke's Commentary


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Mike Balog

 2005/10/29 0:50Profile





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