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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Ahhh!! Well-informed 'agnostics'!!

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2711
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Ahhh!! Well-informed 'agnostics'!!

Quote:
I think in many of these situations people have [i]disguised[/i] their own rejection of God in a false "compassion".



Quote:
Sir, sounds to me like she is fighting God or conviction and using this question as an [i]excuse[/i] to not surrender.



Sometimes these objections are from people honestly seeking truth but more often they are just disguises and excuses. It reminds me of the Jews who always came to Jesus with objections, just like this lady you speak of, they were thinking they had a head problem with Jesus, in their case they thought He was breaking the law. But Jesus would always answer them with words that hit their consciences hard. His words would strip away every disguise and bury every excuse. He would show them that what they really had was a heart problem.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/25 0:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Do you recognize the Holy Spirit in your life? Does It speak to you? How do you know right from wrong? etc. These more personal questions bring the immediacy and availability of the Holy Spirit to the fore.

I know you believe in a Universal Creator God and evolution, but Darwinian evolution is based on random mutation and such a God must have 'left things to get on with it'. Would such a God still deserve to me called a creator? If God did influence it in 'any' way then it is not Darwinian evolution. Pay your money, and take your choice!

I notice that you frequently refer to the Holy Spirit as 'It'. I presume this because you see the Holy Spirit and the 'inner light' as synonimous terms which, of course, they are not. If they were, all talk of 'receiving the Spirit' would be nonsense, wouldn't it?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/25 6:02Profile
coops
Member



Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re: well informed agbistics, cont...

Now, as a disclaimer: remember I'm only playing the devil's advocate to see what others may say, its nothing against you!

[b]JFEdgar[/b]: I cant see any evidence in the fact that Jesus was talking to [b]only[/b] his followers on the sermon on the mount. Do you know any? Even if He was, there are Christians who die of starvation anyway, so it doesn't really make much sense! I think it's clear Jesus wasn't talking about spiritual food and clothing (In Matt 6) so the rest is more of a digression.

[b]ginnyrose[/b]: thats a good, point, they could easily have been making excuses. I just want to know what they would say if it genuinely was a stumbling block in coming to Jesus :-)

[b]dohzman[/b]: That was a really good post, and reminds me that we dont have all the answers and aren't expected to! But to the best of my ability I'll try and grasp the most I can :-P "Remember, we are witnesses, not professors bringing about some great doctrine" thats really good, and reminds me that Im not in trouble evangelising when I just dont know the answers, thanks heaps for that post!

[b]InTheLight[/b]: again, thats really helpful thankyou so much! this forum is fantastic...

[b]philologos[/b]: this thread isnt really about the creation vs evolution debate or misconceptions about the Holy Spirit, I know u have been on here much more than I have and probably much wiser and more experienced, so can I ask in all humility and love, that we stay on topic (or start a new thread?). :-)

[b]bubbaguy[/b]: the issue wasnt really with "Why do bad things happen?" but "Why does Jesus claim this about The Father and we dont see any truth in it?" I mean even in Jesus' day that wouldnt have made sense to them... its interesting, thinking about the stigma around saying such a thing....


*gasps for air* wow, long post, i hope i dont shut anyone down with that, keep disucssing! God bless all, this is fantastic, im learning so much! Thankyou all!


_________________
Coops

 2005/10/25 6:35Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

What people starving was she talking about? Were those people sinners or saints? Are the promises of God to sinners? (note. I'm not saying there hasn't been a Christian starve to death.. I don't know.. but that would have been my logic.)

I would point this out...
Reguardless of a persons thought of God, whether he is a mean old grandpa with a stick in his hand or a gentle loving father, they are going to face God on judgement day.

God is not willing that any should perish but if he was lawless wouldn't you atleast want to please God, since He is the judge of your soul?

Ofcourse we know the truth, God is love, God is holy, and God is just.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/10/25 9:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
philologos: this thread isnt really about the creation vs evolution debate or misconceptions about the Holy Spirit, I know u have been on here much more than I have and probably much wiser and more experienced, so can I ask in all humility and love, that we stay on topic (or start a new thread?).

I'll see it I can reconnect to an earlier thread. No offence taken! :-D


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/25 11:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Coops,

We always have to establish some things when we deal with atheists and agnostics on the "why do bad things happen to good people issue". From a biblical vantage point we have to start off from the right [u]point of reference[/u] which is this:

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. (Lamentations 3:22)

It was not through God that Sin entered. It is because of God's compassion that Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil. All humanity in Adam deserves to be thrust into the lowest hell apart from God's compassion. We are simply in no position to be making any kind of agreements and certainly God was never in a postion to have to show mercy to man?

If you say something like this, "lets rewind the tape a minute and go back to the beginning..." and then start from there, you can easy establish God as merciful and Satan as the one who has come to steal kill and destroy. But like building a building, you have to have that initial point of reference right or the whole survey will be off.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/25 12:26Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Amen... You can always go back to the begining and show why there is sickness disease and poverty. Which is because of sin and the fall.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/10/25 12:29Profile
coops
Member



Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re:

Quote:
If you say something like this, "lets rewind the tape a minute and go back to the beginning..."

It was not through God that Sin entered. It is because of God's compassion that Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil



Im using that!
:-)


_________________
Coops

 2005/10/25 17:51Profile
JFEdgar
Member



Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
I cant see any evidence in the fact that Jesus was talking to only his followers on the sermon on the mount. Do you know any? Even if He was, there are Christians who die of starvation anyway, so it doesn't really make much sense! I think it's clear Jesus wasn't talking about spiritual food and clothing (In Matt 6) so the rest is more of a digression.



In Matt. Chapter 5 v. 14 he says "Ye (you all) are the light of the world..." Then He continues along the same thought line and says "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven (v. 16)"

You would have to argue that an unsaved person can be the "Light of the World" the "Salt of the earth" and that they are a "Child of God". The last one, I think, would be the hardest.

1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

As for Matt 6 being spiritual things, instead of physical... My personal interpretation is that it is mostly talking about physical things because of Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?" and because it ends with Matthew 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

It says the gentiles seek after these things, and that we are not to worry about them. We are to seek after Spiritual things. If God was talking about Spiritual things, then He wouldnt command us elsewhere to hunger after spiritual things (ex, the beatitudes). Right here, he tells us NOT to seek the things He is talking about, but in contrast to seek after the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

Love in Christ,
and keep seeking Him alone,
Joe


_________________
Joe E

 2005/10/25 18:07Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

When I was doing the weekly devotionals on Abraham I paused when the Asian Tsunami had struck to share some current thoughts. The final death count was double what was estimated earlier. An thoughtful agnostic, particularly one with a Christian background, might find some things here to ponder.

You will [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4109&forum=45&post_id=&refresh=Go]Tsunami and the Love of God[/url] in the archives.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/26 4:03Profile





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