"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
whew there is alot of things to reviview and think about on these last few posts :-o
Here is the Carter Colon message:
[url=http://www.therevivalweneed.com/xoops/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1453]Discerning the Fellowship of Jesus Christ[/url]
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2003/6/20 0:59||Profile|
Oh I forgot something!
One cannot hold to this line of thinking:
1. We must not go beyond the Scriptures.
Ummm... Paul says specifically that we are not to exceed what is written.
1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
| 2003/6/20 1:26||Profile|
1 Corinthians 4:6
"...that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written..."
If we are to take this verse in the sense that it seems some might feel inclined to, I see some clear problems.
1. Anything written after that point (i.e. anything in the New Testament written after 1 Corinthians) would be deemed incorrect for us to believe in or even support. Because if Paul was saying in that verse that, from that point on, they were not to exceed what was written (in the way some are taking it) then they would have to reject the remainder of the New Testament (anything that was written later). At best, the only counter-argument I can imagine would be to say that Paul was speaking prophetically of the entire Canon. But that, at best, is mere speculation and opinion, not doctrine.
2. Even if we say that Paul was meaning to include the Canon of Scripture, we still have problems. SInce I just listened to Carter COlon's message, I will list a few examples from there.
a. Having a pulpit
b. The term "Revival"
c. Altar Call
d. Repetitious Prayer (where you have those who want to accept Jesus to repeat what you are saying)
These things are not mentioned in the Scriptures (at least I don't think so) and therefore, according to the way i am perceiving some understand 1 Cor. 4:6, they are going beyond (exceeding) what is written.
3. The term "trinity" is exceeding what is written.
Now, if we take 1 Cor. 4:6 simply to mean that things are not to contradict what has been written, that seems correct to me, although it is not clear that this is what Paul is saying.
The verse in Revelation seems pretty clearly to be simply speaking of that specific writing (i.e. "of this book") and it would only, once again, be mere speculation and personal opinion to understand it as referring to the entire Canon. ANd if it were speaking of such, we would have to judge the term "trintiy", and a host of other extra-Biblical terms and practices as a violation of this verse.
Maria, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to explain. The key is "line of thinking". You must look at the all the points mentioned to follow the line of thinking. I was simply pointing out how one cannot hold to a series of statements mentioned, without contradiction. I was not arguing for one point by itself. I was saying that you can't believe all those points listed without being in contradiction.
| 2003/6/21 16:19||Profile|
"Actually, whether the Bible is against it or not, we ARE to love these people. But love is not blind love is Truth, for God is Love 1 John 4:8"
You are correct here. I was unclear. What I meant was that, as long as what they are doing is not clearly going against Scripture, then there is room to hope and believe, which are fundamental elements of love. Yes, we shouldn't just believe everything we hear, but hoping the best and believing should be our initial response to something new. At least that is how I have come to understand love. Love is also patient. It is not loving to rashly judge a man, ministry, or manifestation because it doesn't seem right. Or because you saw something on the internet, or t.v., or read it in a book. Patience will seek the truth about something by going to the source and asking questions in humility.
For example, if you have trouble with what is going on in Toronto, don't say anything bad about it until you go there yourself and check it out and ask questions. ask them how they understand the Scriptures that you think they are violating. that's being loving (patient). Go with hope in your heart that you are just misunderstanding the situation or that these people, while they may be violating Scripture, truly love God and are trying to seek HIm and let HIm have His way with them. Hope that good will come out of the situation. Hope that you can come to an understanding of their viewpoint, even if you don't agree with them. that's also being fair and righteous in your judgement and discernment of the situation. Just say to them, "I saw this or heard this about you or your church and wanted to know how you can be ok with it." then you can start a dialoge. Be patient, hopeful, believing (at least going in), and longsuffering with these people.
| 2003/6/21 16:33||Profile|
I have to say that you are right in saying that the "exceeding what is written" verse was out of context -- my brother and I discussed this recently. My point was that we cannot exceed what is written in that things cannot blatantly go against scripture and be OK. But, that was not my main point so hopefully everyone will read what I wrote before I posted that.
About visiting Toronto, I don't need to. I've seen the videos, and it would NOT be loving for me to go and subject myself to that. I suggest you listen to a message by Carter Conlon, entitled RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! "Curiosity killed the cat" he says, and I agree. The bible says not to "touch what is unclean" and to get away from the false altars. "We cannot partake of the cup of the Lord and of the cup of demons."
Really, all I need to say, I have already said. If you don't agree, I am greatly sorry. The truth is, I love these people more than I think you can possibly imagine. But love is not blind, love is Truth. Everything is in scripture, and these ministries are opposing what is written. The leaders are clearly leading even sincere people astray. Paul says that the delusions in the last days would be so strong that even the elect of God might be deceived. And Jesus says "SEE TO IT that no one misleads you."
Todd, God loves you and me and everyone involved in these ministries...that doesn't make them right, and that DOESN'T mean we should experiment and hope that they are right. I can hope that what goes on in Isalm is ok till I'm blue in the face and that won't make it Truth. No matter how sincere people are, if what is happening is not founded on TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS, than it will fall, being built on the sand.
All through the old and new testament things and people were arising as counterfeits of God...they resemble God, but they aren't God.
I'll be praying for you!
P.S. A good book to get that I never could get through because it was so sad is "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hannegraff (Sp?)
| 2003/6/21 17:32||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
P.S. A good book to get that I never could get through because it was so sad is "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hannegraff (Sp?)
Yes, definetly recommended.(As well as "Christianity in Crisis"/ Hanegraaff) Helped me tremendously as I came out of that type of stuff.I owe a debt of gratitude to Hank and the Bible Answer Man broadcast for opening my eyes to the false teachings of our times. It made me really start pressing into the scriptures more. He has taken a lot of flack for his stand and I have to applaud him for his courage to do so.
Great dialogue you all have going here.
| 2003/6/21 22:42||Profile|
"Really, all I need to say, I have already said."
Ok, that may be true and if you feel like you don't want to say more about this topic that's your own deal and is understandable. But in light of your statement, it would seem appropriate for me to now ask for your continued dialogue concerning these things.
So, while you may have said all you "needed" to, I would very much appreciate more of your thoughts.
"I have to say that you are right in saying that the "exceeding what is written" verse was out of context -- my brother and I discussed this recently. My point was that we cannot exceed what is written in that things cannot blatantly go against scripture and be OK."
"Everything is in scripture..."
I am confused about how you can make these two statements in your post. First, it seems you are admitting that there are things that are not in Scripture, then you are saying something else. COuld you please explain your view more clearly on this?
"Everything is in scripture, and these ministries are opposing what is written. The leaders are clearly leading even sincere people astray."
I don't think that it would be right of you to not follow through with this statement. Will you get more specific so that the truth of your statement can be assessed? What specific ministry are you addressing (let's just start somewhere, TOronto if you would like) and where, specifically, is it opposing what is written? Which leaders are "clearly" leading people astray and what specific evidence do you have for this?
"Todd, God loves you and me and everyone involved in these ministries...that doesn't make them right, and that DOESN'T mean we should experiment and hope that they are right."
I agree with the first part, and am unclear on the second. Yes, God loving everyone does not mean that everyone is right. And I am not saying that we should blindly "experiment" (a word I would not use) or even hope that they are right. Like I said earlier, we should give them the benefit of the doubt that, even if ther are wrong, their intentions are good. This should be our intial reaction to new or different areas of discernment that come up concerning divine things. If we then engage them or the situation with love and it turns out that what they are doing is wrong, and they know it, and they are choosing to continue in their sin anyway, and they are leading people astray, and we have done what we could to try and turn them around, and whatever other steps God would lead us through in love, then, maybe, we might consider speaking publicly about the faults. Until tremendous effort has been made towards the subject, (not simply watching video footage or reading a book) actually engaging with the real people involved (or those who believe or follow them), we only are engaging in lazy and unrighteous judgement, discernment, gossip and slander (that is, if we openly condemn it). THis is my strong conviction. WE can have our negative opinions, but we cannot go around expressing them unless we have earned the right through much effort brought about and sustained by love. This, I believe, universally holds true unless God gives supernatural discernment (which I believe is much rarer than is commonly thought). But that is a whole nother talk.
"I can hope that what goes on in Isalm is ok till I'm blue in the face and that won't make it Truth."
That is true, hoping doesn't make it true. Hoping doesn't make anything true. Nothing "makes" anything true. either it's true or it's not. In fact, hoping that "what goes on in Islam is ok" doens't make you more loving towards them. But hoping that their intentions are good or that they are just being mislead and that they are a product of their culture, etc. is loving. That is how "hoping all things" works in that situation I think.
Here's a good example of love and how it hopes and believes all things. If you see a fat man in church whom you don't know, you can:
a. Choose to believe that they are probably a lazy and undisciplined person who loves food too much.
b. Choose to believe they have a genetic predisposition to being overweight or that they are a new believer and trying to lose weight or that God hasn't really convicted them too much about that area of their life yet but has been working on the most important part (the inside).
Can you pick which person loved the man? Now if later on you get to know this man and you learn from hanging out with him that he is just lazy and gluttonous, then it's ok for you to believe that about him, but it won't really profit anything. If you have learned that he is such, you can continue to love him by asking him what he thinks about that and trying to help him, etc. Then being patient and longsuffering comes in.
The big difference with Islam is, these people don't claim the name of Jesus. They aren't claiming to believe what Christians believe. They don't claim to believe the whole Bible. Most of these ministries we refer to do believe those things. THerefore, since they make those claims, we can hope that it's true. Like you say, none of us "have it all", so let's not act like it. Let's get specific if we think we have a correct understanding of a doctrine or situation. Let's not be afraid to discuss it with humility and the possibility that our views may change.
These people are saying they do believe "the truth as it is in Jesus." So, if you think they are incorrect, I would like to know why. Because, to be honest, I am not convinced either way, and I would like to keep thinking about it. Please be as specific as possible about your reasons for your understandings. State the exact statement made and your source.
Toronto or Pensacola would probably be the best place to start because I have some contacts with those movements. WHo knows what might happen if we really dig in to this.
I mentioned Toronto, you said you've seen the video's, so let's talk about it now. You didn't bring up the name, I did, so you don't have to necessarily defend yourself, but I am asking to hear you view more clearly.
| 2003/6/22 21:06||Profile|