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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Afraid

"... in this age of desperate apostasy, forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture. Here you have the Apostles proclaiming a message that was profoundly disturbing. We are afraid of disturbing people today. You must not have their emotions stirred, you must not have people weeping in a meeting, you must not have people rolling on the floor under conviction of sin. Keep things orderly. May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work? If God chooses to move in that way, if God chooses to so convict men and women of their sin that they will be about to lose their reason, I say, God move on until we can see again what was witnessed in the Edwards Revival, in the Finney Revival, in the Fiftey-nine Revival, in the Welsh Revival, and, praise God, today in the Hebrides Revival- God moving in a supernatural way."

-Duncan Campbell, "The Price and Power of Revival: Lesson from the Hebrides Awakening" (pp. 25-26)

 2003/6/16 12:02Profile
Maria
Member



Joined: 2003/6/8
Posts: 77
USA

 Re: Afraid

First, we must note that he said people were "rolling on the floor in conviction of sin," not rolling on the floor laughing...

We must be careful with this, however. Remember what Paul said to the Corinthian church when it was getting a bit "out of order."

"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?
7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?
8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
...
12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, SEEK TO ABOUND FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH.
...
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, BUT THE OTHER PERSON IS NOT EDIFIED.
...
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
...
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. LET ALL THINGS BE DONE FOR EDIFICATION.
...
32 AND THE SPIRIT OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO PROPHETS;
33 for GOD IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION BUT OF PEACE, as in all the churches of the saints.
...
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly AND IN AN ORDERLY MANNER." 1 Corinthians 14:6-40

Once again, we must examine every statement and compare it with Scripture.

If you (I speak to people in general, not to one specific person) want to "roll on the floor" etc., the best thing to do would be to do it in secret -- where your heavenly Father is most glorified.

--Maria


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Stephanie

 2003/6/16 12:27Profile
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 Re: Afraid

Quote:
forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture.


I dont like that quote that much. Scripture is very important and cannot be contridicted and maligned. Even though in revivals God does new things he never, I repeat never goes against his revealed word.

Quote:
Keep things orderly. May God help us, may God have mercy upon us.


lol.. well that is true we are a people of order that want everything to work to our convince! WE need God to stir up out of our comfort zone. But that is not a lincense to accept whatever is happening in a church meeting as God's spirit and promtings.

Quote:
if God chooses to so convict men and women of their sin that they will be about to lose their reason


I think its in the "revival of lewis" testimony where he talks of this one man that was under such conviction that he was kinda out of his mind. He couldnt eat and just kept reapeating to himself: "Ohh God, is there mercy for me, a sinner?" :-o

Ducan campbell's response to the man's condition was: "Let him stew in the conviction and get his tummy full" in other words let him get his dosage of conviction so that repentance can have its full work in his life. So he will accept salvation as a more precious Grace.


Overall I really like that book: "The Price and Power of Revival" by duncan campbell. thanks for sharing todd.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/6/19 1:01Profile
Maria
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Joined: 2003/6/8
Posts: 77
USA

 Re:

Yeah, I thought the man (Duncan Campbell) was probably not way off -- but that quote can be totally misconstrued if not put in context. That's why it's important to put everything in context and make sure it aligns with scripture. The subject line: "Afraid" is what made me respond with Corinthians.

Quote:
But that is not a lincense to accept whatever is happening in a church meeting as God's spirit and promtings.

That was my point.

Quote:

I think its in the "revival of lewis" testimony where he talks of this one man that was under such conviction that he was kinda out of his mind. He couldnt eat and just kept reapeating to himself: "Ohh God, is there mercy for me, a sinner?"

That's great! Sort of goes with Reidhead's message about Repentance. "Except Ye Repent" I think it is. He says that we must see ourselves as lepors from head to toe in order to be saved. (As in the law, lepors could not be cleansed unless they were full of leprosy from head to toe.) God is so amazing!!

--Maria


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Stephanie

 2003/6/19 9:43Profile
TaKa
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Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124
Louisiana

 Real Revival

I believe real revival is for the benefit of the church so that the church will go out and benefit others by spreading the gospel message.

The revivals of the old testament began with crying, not laughing. I think people will fall on the floor under conviction, but I don't know what all this rolling on the floor laughing stuff is all about.

Yes, Paul warned the Corinthian church when it was getting out of order. Is God please when we worship? Yes. But I believe that if we don't get out on the streets where the people who need Him are, God will not be pleased with us.

In the churches I attend, we desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

But we also believe and practice order, unlike some of the churches in my denomination.

I believe there is a difference between lukewarmness of heart toward God and finding a balance when it comes to spiritual manifestations in the church.

Just because we practice order, some would say that we're lukewarm and that we're trying to quench the Spirit of God.

What do you guys think?





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Troy

 2003/6/19 12:08Profile
Maria
Member



Joined: 2003/6/8
Posts: 77
USA

 Re: Real Revival

Quote:
"The revivals of the old testament began with crying, not laughing. I think people will fall on the floor under conviction, but I don't know what all this rolling on the floor laughing stuff is all about."

So true! And not only the revivals in the Old Testament, but also in the New. At Pentacost, people were "pierced" in their hearts when the Spirit of God moved and spoke in Truth!

Quote:
"In the churches I attend, we desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
But we also believe and practice order, unlike some of the churches in my denomination."

=) Same here!!

"Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

Quote:
"I believe there is a difference between lukewarmness of heart toward God and finding a balance when it comes to spiritual manifestations in the church."

I agree with you. I think people can actually be very lukewarm in heart while practicing "spiritual" manifestations -- we can't look at someone's outward appearance to see whether they are "on fire" (I hate that term) or not. God looks at the heart! In my opinion, many churches that say that others are "dead" are themselves dead (in sin)!!

"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

"Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETED in the sight of My God.

"So remember what you have received and heard; AND KEEP IT, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

"But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

"...He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Revelation 3:1-6

Isn't it amazing that we have Scripture to help us answer every question?

Quote:
"I believe real revival is for the benefit of the church so that the church will go out and benefit others by spreading the gospel message."

Yes!

"You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." Luke 24:48-49

And what was this power for?? To merely perform outward "manifestations"? NO!

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, HE WILL TESTIFY ABOUT ME, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will CONVICT the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU into all the truth; for HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "HE WILL GLORIFY ME, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

The Holy Spirit is "power from on High" to enable us to TESTIFY of the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ!!!

As a result of Pentacost, people were brought to salvation!!

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Absolutely, I agree with you TaKa! =)


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Stephanie

 2003/6/19 13:42Profile
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Joined: 2002/12/11
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 Re: Real Revival

Quote:
I believe real revival is for the benefit of the church so that the church will go out and benefit others by spreading the gospel message.


Thats a great statement. Revival is not a selfish thing where God is blessing his saints an giving them blessings and things. Revival is a stirring of Gods people to life and it brings them to a place where they see the awful state of the lostness of men in the world. And therefore Revival gives complusion and power to help evangelize and spread the gospel. And revival is not a passing of a spirit or manifestation to another christian or non-christian. Its the equipping of the saints to give them boldness and power to preach and share the words and person of the gospel.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/6/19 17:15Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

A big part of the reason I think Duncan Campbell got to be so involved with a fairly modern movement of God and had so much influence was because of the spirit behind this statement:

"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"

I believe that God loves that type of thinking. To me it seems to support the idea that, unless the Bible is clearly against it, then there is room to love those who are involved in it. and on top of that (well, acually along the same lines), there is room to believe and hope that it's true (love). and in doing so, God may enlighten the eyes of our understanding. should we be so certain about what revival is and what it looks like and how it must be, etc, based on the understandings of man and history (and not soley on the Bible) and we then make the next step to say that such a way is how it must be exclusively, we err.

Again I will quote Campbell:

"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"

And I don't think that it so much matters that, at the time, Campbell understood this statement as pertaining to manifestations of conviction like falling on the floor, loosing your mind, etc. it is the spirit of the statement that he was making. it is that attitude that he had. the attitude that says, "I don't care that this is something totally uncomfortable and not clearly Biblical and maybe never even happened before in all of history, I won't limit God. I dare not!"

I find it so interesting that the same people who make the claim "we absolutely must not accept anything that is not in the Scriptures" can say in the same night "Revival is this way and that way." Because the only Biblical revival of the CHurch that we have in Scripture is in Acts. and what happened at the outset of that one? Was the onlooking world impressed and drawn in by the dignity, soberness, and solemness of the men? No, they thought they were drunk at first. Then they saw the power, felt the fire, and flocked into God's arms.

WHo are we to say that God can't revive His people the way He wants to? At times make them drunk with joy? we can only even possibly say this, in any fairness (according to our own standards), if Scripture clearly expresses it.

One cannot hold to this line of thinking:
1. We must not go beyond the Scriptures.
2. I understand and know how revival must look and be like.

It is simply a logical impossibility. Is such a one not looking at how God has revived people and places in the past (extra-Biblical) and then claiming that such a way is the only way He can do it from now on? Or that it must at least be similar to how it has been before?

Why couldn't have God, in His sovereignty, for His own reasons, have decided to bless His people with joy and laughter and signs and wonders, etc? Why not? Is there anything in the BIble that says that for God to do so would be a contradiction or incorrect or that such a thing could not be from God?

Quoting Maria:
"39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly AND IN AN ORDERLY MANNER." 1 Corinthians 14:6-40
Once again, we must examine every statement and compare it with Scripture.
If you (I speak to people in general, not to one specific person) want to "roll on the floor" etc., the best thing to do would be to do it in secret -- where your heavenly Father is most glorified.

Quoting Campbell:
"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"

One also cannot hold to this line of thinking:
1. Doing things in an orderly manner is the only way a church service must be held.
2. It is ok for things to get disorderly if it is due to conviction of sin.
3. It is not ok for things to get disorderly if it's due to joy.
4. It's ok to roll on the floor in conviction but not ok to do so in joy.

Again, that line of reasoning is logically unsound (as best I can see it).

 2003/6/19 22:03Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont like that quote that much. Scripture is very important and cannot be contridicted and maligned. Even though in revivals God does new things he never, I repeat never goes against his revealed word."

i think that perhaps you misunderstood Campbell right here. He wasn't saying that "forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture" is a good thing, but that it is what was happening "in this age of desperate apostasy." So in that time (maybe our time, let's see what the polls say), people were forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture. As far as I can tell Campbell would be contradicting himself if he were saying that "forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture" was a good thing.



 2003/6/19 22:45Profile
Maria
Member



Joined: 2003/6/8
Posts: 77
USA

 Re:

…………………
Quote:
”To me it seems to support the idea that, unless the Bible is clearly against it, then there is room to love those who are involved in it.”
………………….


Actually, whether the Bible is against it or not, we ARE to love these people. But love is not blind – love is Truth, for “God is Love” 1 John 4:8


………………………
Quote:
”And on top of that (well, acually along the same lines), there is room to believe and hope that it's true (love).”
……………………..


Why believe and hope that a manifestation is real? The only purpose of God working signs and wonders is to give a further demonstration of His power – it’s not an end, but a means to display His wonder!! Instead of believing and hoping the manifestation is real, why not believe and hope that the people who are involved are coming to a fuller understanding of Who Jesus Christ is?

Someone once asked my brother how much false doctrine one could believe before he went to hell. My brother’s answer surprised even himself. He said, “It’s not about how much false doctrine one believes, none of us have it “all.” The question is are you believing (trusting in, relying upon, clinging to) a doctrine OR are you believing (trusting in, relying upon, clinging to) Jesus Christ? Because if you are believing upon Jesus Christ, no matter what happens, you will believe Him. Even if your doctrine is wrong. But if you are believing upon your doctrine, than if/when it is tested and proven wrong, you will fall away.”

This is a true statement. The problem is, that many aren’t even led to the REAL Jesus Christ! They are led to “Another Jesus”, another “Christ” who only caters to fleshly desires. (Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.) Is God a big God and can He rescue those whose hearts are truly yearning for truth? Absolutely! But the Scripture also says:

Many shepherds have ruined My vineyard, They have trampled down My field; They have made My pleasant field A desolate wilderness. It has been made a desolation, Desolate, it mourns before Me; The whole land has been made desolate, Because no man lays it to heart. Jeremiah 12:10 -11

I don’t think anyone on this forum does not love and show love to those who are in these movements. Jesus, Paul, and pretty much everyone else in Scripture pointed out Truth and untruth. And their phrases didn’t always sound loving – but oh how they loved!! They laid down their lives for the Brethren – in life and death.

I do not think anyone on this forum thinks they “have it all” either – if any of us do, we need to repent!


……………….
Quote:
“the only Biblical revival of the Church that we have in Scripture is in Acts.”
…………………


Not true! What about when Ezra read the Book of the Law to the people in Nehemiah? That had to be one of the greatest revivals of all time!! (And it was brought about because the Word of God was proclaimed: Christ!) There are so many, if I started listing them, it would take all night!! Do we even know what revival is anymore?


………………….
Quote:
“and what happened at the outset of that one? Was the onlooking world impressed and drawn in by the dignity, soberness, and solemness of the men? No, they thought they were drunk at first. Then they saw the power, felt the fire, and flocked into God's arms.
……………………..


I’ve grown to greatly dislike the term, “revival.” It is so abused! Did the writer of Acts say, “there was a great revival that day?” Not that I know of… He said: “And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.” Acts 2:47 This was a true revival!

It wasn’t the outward signs that caused people to repent at Pentecost – while God DOES work signs and wonders, it is not His intention for us to camp there – it’s not for a show, but a demonstration of His power. And if the fruit of light (“goodness, righteousness and truth”) is not evident within the lives of the people who experienced that sign or a wonder, (and in the people performing it) it wasn’t God.

It is not signs and wonders, or joyful dancing or painful sighing that produces revival. It is the proclamation of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection – the scriptures being unfolded, people understanding – these types of things that classify a true “revival.”


…………………….
Quote:
“should we be so certain about what revival is and what it looks like and how it must be, etc, based on the understandings of man and history (and not soley on the Bible) and we then make the next step to say that such a way is how it must be exclusively, we err.”
………………….


You are right, we shouldn’t look back to Acts (or any other book) and think God to do the very same thing again – He rarely (if ever) does anything the same way. “Who has know the mind of the Lord that they may instruct Him?” BUT “We have the mind of Christ.” In other words, while we cannot say “God will do it this way, and that way” the instructions on Christian living, and how things should be conducted in the church are clearly explained in the New Testament writings. If we stop heeding those writings, we may as well throw our Bibles away.


……………………
Quote:
I find it so interesting that the same people who make the claim "we absolutely must not accept anything that is not in the Scriptures" can say in the same night "Revival is this way and that way."
Quote:
"I don't care that this is something totally uncomfortable and not clearly Biblical and maybe never even happened before in all of history, I won't limit God. I dare not!"
………………….


My problem is not as much that “oh, well this wasn’t in the Bible” as it is “Oh, the Bible said when this happened that we are not supposed to heed it, it’s a delusion.” The problem is, what they are doing IS in the Bible – and we are warned to stay away from it. This is not limiting God. It’s taking Him at His Word.


………………..
Quote:
Who are we to say that God can't revive His people the way He wants to? At times make them drunk with joy?
………………….


God will revive His people the way He wants to. And He fills them with joy! David danced before the Lord with all of His might!! But, Paul writes,

26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. 1 Corinthians 14:26-40


…………………
Quote:
Is such a one not looking at how God has revived people and places in the past (extra-Biblical) and then claiming that such a way is the only way He can do it from now on? Or that it must at least be similar to how it has been before?
……………….


God won’t necessarily do things the same way, but His way will always produce the same result: repentance and the fruit of “goodness, righteousness and TRUTH.” He is after the hearts of men and women.


………………
Quote:
Quoting Campbell:
"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"
……………………….


Are you saying that obeying the letter the Apostle Paul wrote would be dictating God? I’m not sure what you mean by that.

………………….
Quote:
”One also cannot hold to this line of thinking:
1. Doing things in an orderly manner is the only way a church service must be held.
2. It is ok for things to get disorderly if it is due to conviction of sin.
3. It is not ok for things to get disorderly if it's due to joy.
4. It's ok to roll on the floor in conviction but not ok to do so in joy.”
…………………


I don’t think anyone said those things. It’s the fruit of these movements that worries me.

I think this is a good conversation for all of us to have!!

If you want to hear a good message, listen to “Discerning the Fellowship of Jesus Christ.” It’s in the Carter Conlon section on this website.

In His Love,
Maria


_________________
Stephanie

 2003/6/20 0:21Profile





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