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Mike Compton

The thing which comes to me about Hans's message, is that it seems most applicable in 'church' (group of believers) or when two or more people are agreeing on the thing to be prayed for. At these times, the individual sonship of each believer is being strengthened by the agreement with each other 'son'.

This is unity in the Spirit (and in mind).

But, when Stephen saw Jesus and called out to Him, he was not in a prayer meeting.

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:54 - 60 KJV)

This (below) is an example of 'church' unity.

'And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:23 - 31 KJV)

Dear SI Church,

I have read your comments, exhortations, and warnings. I appreciate the candor by which some of you have responded. I have a difficult time reconciling some of the things I read in my Bible with the things you say. Maybe you can do me a favor, and explain your interpretations of some questions that many practices in worship and prayer raise in my mind, and things taught by the different well-known teachers and pastors from the past and present.

What is your explanation for the fact that we have Christians who accept the gifts for today and those who don’t? Did God change? Did the Holy Spirit, the Giver of the fruit and gifts, change? This is what a large part of the Christian Church teaches. Don’t we need discernment anymore? Or are there two Holy Spirits, one for the “gifts died with the Apostles,” or, the “gifts are for today.” Praise God that God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, hasn’t changed. When we declare that the working of the Holy Spirit changed, while God didn’t change, aren’t we speaking for God? God certainly didn’t inspire anyone to write this in His Word.

Someone states that God isn’t necessarily “bothered about who we pray to as much as some would think.” Forgive me, but isn’t this speaking for God, the same thing some are telling me that I do? The God in my Bible never changes. It seems that He was more “strict” in the Old Testament than in the New Testament? Or maybe, He still is just as strict about worship except WE have decided that He isn’t.

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Hans Prang

Hi brother :-) I've read through the posts again but I can't find where anyone specifically stated that we should pray to the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost per se'. The Lord God is ONE God. He has revealed Himself to us In Jesus Christ who is very God , Like the sun -- you have the core, the effulgence, and the invisiable sun rays, that would be simular to the God Head. One God. You can't remove any part and have God.

I kinda think :-o maybe I know where you're coming from, somewhat :-( , Can I ask you a question: Did you have a rehma or was the Word of God enlightened to your understanding in a manner that instructed you in a course of action? As pretains your personal prayer life?

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D.Miller

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Mike Balog

Hi Hans, seeing as this was a direct question, I have to honour your enquirey:

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Zeke Oosthuis

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Ron Bailey

Han's,

On your website you claim to call the church to unity by praying to the Father only. Yet the only thing your proclamation has produced is dis-unity! In my opinion your idea (if followed) would create yet another schism in the body, as is evidenced by the fact that it has been adequately refuted by the members of this site, yet you seem to be unwavering in your belief.

I was once a Seventh Day Adventist so I do know something about the cultic mindset. I fear you are already well down this pathway. Listen to what the others here have said to you, drop the dogmatism!

If you indeed want to follow the Fathers will than I implore you pray THIS prayer;

Father I submit my mind to Your Mind, my thoughts to Your thoughts, my spirit to Your Holy Spirit. Father remove all of my vain imaginings, delusions of grandeur, and clear my mind of any precepts that are not from You.

Friend, you seriously need to step back from your computer for a couple of weeks and pray that prayer for a while.

Dear Church at SI.

Let us begin at the beginning. When God gives mankind a rule, a precept, a commandment if you wish, and we modify it in the slightest, have we not placed ourselves above God? Who was the one who desired to receive the glory that belongs to God? Satan, he is the one who desires the worship that belongs to God.

Satan is the enemy of God and of the Church of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that he is transformed as an angel of light, as are those who are deceived by him.

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Every time we place ourselves above the Word of God or attempt to give a different explanation to His Word, we run the risk of being deceived by an enormous intelligent, certainly much wiser being than we are. We have only one hope and that is Christ. Under the new covenant under the Blood of Jesus, we have an assurance and a blessing that none of the Old Testament saints had.

It is for that reason that Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesian Church explaining in exact detail HOW WE COULD STAND FIRM against the schemes of the devil. We have to consider who Paul is. He was the well educated and very zealous persecutor of the Church when he was present at the stoning of Stephen. Was he present when Stephen cried out just prior to his death?
Acts 7
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It would appear that Paul (still called Saul) was present when Stephen committed his spirit to Jesus.

Yet, a number of years later, after Paul has been taken into the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and writes a very well defined letter explaining how to stand strong in the strength of God’s mighty power, he doesn’t once mention the prayer that Stephen made and he doesn’t even begin to suggest any differently than is recorded in this letter to the Ephesians. However in this letter he demonstrates how he prays for other believers. Paul never mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Didn’t Paul know about this “sure” way to overcome every fleshly temptation? Did Paul lead the Ephesian church astray by teaching them to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit as he so eloquently did? If anyone was justified to pray to Jesus, it was Paul, for he – except for the third wave prophets of the 21st century – is the only one who actually spoke to Jesus face-to-face (being it in a vision or in the flesh).

The question that has come to my mind many times is, why, if Paul bothered to write this, do we “improve” on the written word? Do we have a better revelation? If we very carefully study the prayers in Ephesians and consider all the teaching in this letter, why do we argue? First Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father. As I explained in other posts, the use of verbs in the imperative, indicate: one MUST. He mentions the fact that we should ask the Father in his name not once, but a number of times.

From the very early beginning man has attempted to define God. We have very well educated scholars explaining how we can understand God and how we can justify the relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Does this not bother anyone of you; putting a definition on God? The infinite wise God; the everlasting God; the omnipotent God; the Holy One of Israel, we are explaining Him and how we can interact with Him? Is it really God Himself who causes us to do that? We cannot now or ever will, especially in the fleshly state we are, be able to justify changing anything that God has told us to do.

There is no way that we can outsmart the devil, unless we stick to the written word. As soon as we “interpret” it, will we loose and be deceived. Jesus came to the earth to do two things: He paid the price for our sin, that is, He saved us from our sin, AND He restored the relationship between the Father and us. As the seal – the spiritual confirmation – He promised the fellowship with the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible the Holy Spirit makes us want to cry out Abba! Father! Paul in His letter to the Ephesian Church prays by example to the Father in to context of standing Firm Against the schemes of the devil.

I asked that we could stick with the Bible and not man’s interpretation of the Bible. If man’s interpretation had been correct, there would be One Faith and One Body of Christ.

Having just read jimbob’s last post, I will do exactly that. God bless you all.

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Hans Prang

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Ron Bailey