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Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Question

Quote:
At the moment I am still struggling to get a hold on what Hans is advocating here.



I have been following this discussion with interest. Regrettably the basic proposition is still unclear to me. I don't know if I am just being dense...

Some of the components of this discussion remind me of the accounts of disputes with the semi-arians at the council of Nicea. I wonder if all of this is pointing to an oblique doctrine that Christ is similar to the Father, of similar divine "substance", but still subordinate.

Am I missing something or can we rule this implication out?

Thanks,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/19 20:26Profile









 Re: The Schemes of the Devil

The thing which comes to me about Hans's message, is that it seems most applicable in 'church' (group of believers) or when two or more people are agreeing on the thing to be prayed for. At these times, the individual sonship of each believer is being strengthened by the agreement with each other 'son'.

This is unity in the Spirit (and in mind).

But, when Stephen saw Jesus and called out to Him, he was not in a prayer meeting.

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:54 - 60 KJV)

This (below) is an example of 'church' unity.

'And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:23 - 31 KJV)

 2005/10/19 20:37
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: The Schemes of the Devil

Dear SI Church,

I have read your comments, exhortations, and warnings. I appreciate the candor by which some of you have responded. I have a difficult time reconciling some of the things I read in my Bible with the things you say. Maybe you can do me a favor, and explain your interpretations of some questions that many practices in worship and prayer raise in my mind, and things taught by the different well-known teachers and pastors from the past and present.

What is your explanation for the fact that we have Christians who accept the gifts for today and those who don’t? Did God change? Did the Holy Spirit, the Giver of the fruit and gifts, change? This is what a large part of the Christian Church teaches. Don’t we need discernment anymore? Or are there two Holy Spirits, one for the “gifts died with the Apostles,” or, the “gifts are for today.” Praise God that God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, hasn’t changed. When we declare that the working of the Holy Spirit changed, while God didn’t change, aren’t we speaking for God? God certainly didn’t inspire anyone to write this in His Word.

Someone states that God isn’t necessarily “bothered about who we pray to as much as some would think.” Forgive me, but isn’t this speaking for God, the same thing some are telling me that I do? The God in my Bible never changes. It seems that He was more “strict” in the Old Testament than in the New Testament? Or maybe, He still is just as strict about worship except WE have decided that He isn’t.

Quote:
There are many versus that have been quoted that throw another light on the interpretation of the word of God in regards to this matter.


Please Zeke, give me just one so I can address it. And who’s interpretation did I change, God’s or man’s?

Why did the Father reconcile the world to Himself through Jesus Christ? Is it something we should concern ourselves with, or is it a non-event? It is exactly this fact that is confirmed by the Holy Spirit who is the Seal of our reconciliation to the Father. It is the same Holy Spirit we are given as the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out Abba! Father! When you say that it makes no difference and we continue to pray to Jesus or as many do, to the Holy Spirit, are you not speaking for God? Forgive me if I am confused about this interpretation, but the Holy Spirit of God, described in God’s word as the Spirit of Adoption, who – as far as read my Bible – makes me cry out Abba Father; why would He instead cause me to cry out Holy Spirit please anoint me, please show me what has to be cleaned up in my life? Is this God speaking, or is it men’s interpretation?

John 16
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I am not going to argue about whether you pray to Him or not. I talk to Him but I think He is a spirit of Jesus…..I don't exalt (=praise, sing the praises of) the Holy Spirit. He always glorifies Jesus. That is what Jesus said, "The Holy Spirit will not bear witness to Himself, and He will always bear witness to me." (Ernest O’Neill; The Holy Spirit brings a clean heart).

if we think of the Holy Spirit only as an impersonal influence or power, then we are robbing a Divine Person of the worship which is His due (R.A. Torrey; The Personality of the Holy Spirit).

First is the Scripture spoken by Jesus; then a quote from Ernest O’Neill, followed by a quote from R.A. Torrey. If we worship the Holy Spirit, how much should we worship the Holy Spirit? Why doesn’t Ernest O’Neill worship the Holy Spirit? Or is it like all the other different interpretations we have, God really isn’t so particular about it all, for He looks at our heart. Do you know what Jesus said about all this?

If you love Me, you obey My commandments. When Jesus in John 16:13 states that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak on His own initiative, but takes from Jesus and shows us what is to come, and Jesus told us to ask the Father in His (Jesus) name, and Paul in Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 3 prays to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and asks for the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus had told us that the Father would give the Holy Spirit to those who asked……Why do you say that I am misinterpreting Scripture? Why do so many insist that we talk to the Holy Spirit, while it is NOT specified in Scripture, while the Scriptures I quoted are?

Who is speaking for God here? Am I, by quoting His Word, or are it those who give their own interpretation of it?

If I, by making these statements form a cult and/or lead people astray, I am guilty as charged.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/19 21:07Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Hi brother :-) I've read through the posts again but I can't find where anyone specifically stated that we should pray to the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost per se'. The Lord God is ONE God. He has revealed Himself to us In Jesus Christ who is very God , Like the sun -- you have the core, the effulgence, and the invisiable sun rays, that would be simular to the God Head. One God. You can't remove any part and have God.

I kinda think :-o maybe I know where you're coming from, somewhat :-( , Can I ask you a question: Did you have a rehma or was the Word of God enlightened to your understanding in a manner that instructed you in a course of action? As pretains your personal prayer life?


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/10/19 21:33Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,” as some of you see this, to stand Firm Against the schemes of the devil. Paul was either by vision or physically (he doesn’t even appear to be certain himself) taken up to the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and he then writes a letter, which by the grace of God still exists today and explains explicitly how we are to stand firm against the devil and his minions, and we discount it in favor of the prayer of a dying man and/or what is written in Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (I say this to with joy and longing as an exclamation more than a prayer, and just in this context, for it isn’t a substitute for the Book of Ephesians).



Whoa there Hans...

Isn't this reading a bit much into things? Where did you extrapolate all that from, by just a mention of a scripture that was brought forth to be taken into consideration...

Brother there is no ulterior motive here, honestly. This happens quite often unfortunately. There was no reaching to a formula, never even occurred to me to make that connection. Hans, I honestly can hear your heart in this and don't think you are far off at all... maybe it's in going too far, but if this wasn't so dogmatic and didactic I can see where you are making some excellent points. There is a great deal of misappropriated things that you have pointed out.

But this is rather confusing;

[i]Dohzman, you said:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say that because I have dear brothers who don't consider a pray as such unless it's pre-fixed by "In Jesus' name" , and while I understand thier actions here , sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saints at SI, I want you to consider the statement by Dohzman very carefully: “sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.” This is in line with a very popular phrase which is used very commonly in the Church: God looks at the heart; He doesn’t consider the “formula” as much as He considers the sincerity.

I am surprised that you would say that Dohzman, for this statement is not in my Bible. This is a humanistic interpretation of the love of God. This is what my Bible says:[/i]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn't this part of what you are bringing out? The very issue of making an anything goes approach or in this case a formalistic 'add on' as Dohzman pointed out....

Hans, I really think there is a high amount of understanding where you may be going with this... It just seems there is an 'always' quality to it or more so "only". It is quite natural to pray directly to the Father... and surely the excess's ought to be mentioned, it just seems to go too far.

Hope you do take Zekeo's thoughts to heart though, we have been through this before. Remember that there are many, many saints that come through here and I am glad that they will hold us and each other accountable to the best of understanding of the scriptures. So a challenge it is not necessarily, not with a motive of anything other than helping each other. Questions and considerations.


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Mike Balog

 2005/10/20 0:45Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi Hans, seeing as this was a direct question, I have to honour your enquirey:

Quote:

Please Zeke, give me just one so I can address it. And who’s interpretation did I change, God’s or man’s?



I may be picking on something that may be a sideshow, but it is the scripture in acts about Stephen praying to Jesus. In the context of what you are saying this may prove nothing, but in contrasting your position that you have taken it indicates that Jesus does indeed receive prayer, and hear it. And the Father does'nt seem to have an issue with it.

In regards to interpretation of things, the scriptures that you have posted indeed point and validate the direction of your 'insides' (I don't want to use reason/logic, because of your comments about it).

And I'm not trying to be funny or treat your postion with scorn, I'm trying to work with what you have given us. The problem however is that there is this scripture which says 'pray to the Lord of the harvest...' it is generally accepted that the Lord of the Harvest is Jesus, not that I am at all trying to split the triune God. It shows that as much as what you say is true, there is scripture to pull your position to more central application.

The two versus by no means are proof enough to build a doctrine of 'thou shalt not pray to the Father' but are there to keep a position such as yours in tension. From my limited experience of life and the Lord, going down this avenue as with any truth can lead us to a cul-de-sac of our knowledge of him and of His work in the world. It is sobering because we can get to the position that because this one truth is lacking in the church the church is a mess. From our position, if people just grasped this one truth we would reach perfection, and all the problems would dissappear. This position normally comes from focussing to much on one angle of understanding the word 'the way we see it'. Anyone who has studied church history will know that the problems in the church are allot more diverse and varied than just this one issue.

I hope you are getting what I am saying, I am trying as best I can to treat what you are saying with respect and not just dismiss it.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/10/20 3:42Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What is your explanation for the fact that we have Christians who accept the gifts for today and those who don’t? Did God change? Did the Holy Spirit, the Giver of the fruit and gifts, change? This is what a large part of the Christian Church teaches. Don’t we need discernment anymore? Or are there two Holy Spirits, one for the “gifts died with the Apostles,” or, the “gifts are for today.” Praise God that God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, hasn’t changed. When we declare that the working of the Holy Spirit changed, while God didn’t change, aren’t we speaking for God? God certainly didn’t inspire anyone to write this in His Word.

...and you think that all this will be cured if we only pray to the Father? How shall we enjoy the 'communion of the Holy Spirit' unless we talk to Him? and such talk would be prayer. As it happens much of my prayer is to the Father and I don't use the 'sign off' of 'in the name of Jesus' but to say that to commune with the Son and the Spirit is disobedience is presumptious.

What do you make of this statement? John 14:23 (KJVS) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. If I came and made my home with you, would you never talk to me?

Here is my favourite 'song'“And they sung a new song, saying, [u]Thou[/u] art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for [u]thou[/u] wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Rev. 5:9-10, KJVS)Are those who sing this song 'disobedient'?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/20 3:46Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Han's,

On your website you claim to call the church to unity by praying to the Father only. Yet the only thing your proclamation has produced is dis-unity! In my opinion your idea (if followed) would create yet another schism in the body, as is evidenced by the fact that it has been adequately refuted by the members of this site, yet you seem to be unwavering in your belief.

I was once a Seventh Day Adventist so I do know something about the cultic mindset. I fear you are already well down this pathway. Listen to what the others here have said to you, drop the dogmatism!

If you indeed want to follow the Fathers will than I implore you pray THIS prayer;

Father I submit my mind to Your Mind, my thoughts to Your thoughts, my spirit to Your Holy Spirit. Father remove all of my vain imaginings, delusions of grandeur, and clear my mind of any precepts that are not from You.

Friend, you seriously need to step back from your computer for a couple of weeks and pray that prayer for a while.

 2005/10/20 5:38Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: The Schemes of the Devil

Dear Church at SI.

Let us begin at the beginning. When God gives mankind a rule, a precept, a commandment if you wish, and we modify it in the slightest, have we not placed ourselves above God? Who was the one who desired to receive the glory that belongs to God? Satan, he is the one who desires the worship that belongs to God.

Satan is the enemy of God and of the Church of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that he is transformed as an angel of light, as are those who are deceived by him.

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Every time we place ourselves above the Word of God or attempt to give a different explanation to His Word, we run the risk of being deceived by an enormous intelligent, certainly much wiser being than we are. We have only one hope and that is Christ. Under the new covenant under the Blood of Jesus, we have an assurance and a blessing that none of the Old Testament saints had.

It is for that reason that Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesian Church explaining in exact detail HOW WE COULD STAND FIRM against the schemes of the devil. We have to consider who Paul is. He was the well educated and very zealous persecutor of the Church when he was present at the stoning of Stephen. Was he present when Stephen cried out just prior to his death?
Acts 7
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It would appear that Paul (still called Saul) was present when Stephen committed his spirit to Jesus.

Yet, a number of years later, after Paul has been taken into the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and writes a very well defined letter explaining how to stand strong in the strength of God’s mighty power, he doesn’t once mention the prayer that Stephen made and he doesn’t even begin to suggest any differently than is recorded in this letter to the Ephesians. However in this letter he demonstrates how he prays for other believers. Paul never mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Didn’t Paul know about this “sure” way to overcome every fleshly temptation? Did Paul lead the Ephesian church astray by teaching them to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit as he so eloquently did? If anyone was justified to pray to Jesus, it was Paul, for he – except for the third wave prophets of the 21st century – is the only one who actually spoke to Jesus face-to-face (being it in a vision or in the flesh).

The question that has come to my mind many times is, why, if Paul bothered to write this, do we “improve” on the written word? Do we have a better revelation? If we very carefully study the prayers in Ephesians and consider all the teaching in this letter, why do we argue? First Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father. As I explained in other posts, the use of verbs in the imperative, indicate: one MUST. He mentions the fact that we should ask the Father in his name not once, but a number of times.

From the very early beginning man has attempted to define God. We have very well educated scholars explaining how we can understand God and how we can justify the relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Does this not bother anyone of you; putting a definition on God? The infinite wise God; the everlasting God; the omnipotent God; the Holy One of Israel, we are explaining Him and how we can interact with Him? Is it really God Himself who causes us to do that? We cannot now or ever will, especially in the fleshly state we are, be able to justify changing anything that God has told us to do.

There is no way that we can outsmart the devil, unless we stick to the written word. As soon as we “interpret” it, will we loose and be deceived. Jesus came to the earth to do two things: He paid the price for our sin, that is, He saved us from our sin, AND He restored the relationship between the Father and us. As the seal – the spiritual confirmation – He promised the fellowship with the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible the Holy Spirit makes us want to cry out Abba! Father! Paul in His letter to the Ephesian Church prays by example to the Father in to context of standing Firm Against the schemes of the devil.

I asked that we could stick with the Bible and not man’s interpretation of the Bible. If man’s interpretation had been correct, there would be One Faith and One Body of Christ.

Having just read jimbob’s last post, I will do exactly that. God bless you all.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/20 6:36Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Paul never mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Didn’t Paul know about this “sure” way to overcome every fleshly temptation? Did Paul lead the Ephesian church astray by teaching them to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit as he so eloquently did? If anyone was justified to pray to Jesus, it was Paul, for he – except for the third wave prophets of the 21st century – is the only one who actually spoke to Jesus face-to-face (being it in a vision or in the flesh).

This is very strange logic...“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”(Acts 19:6-7, KJVS)... this refers to the events which took place at Ephesus and the unalterable story of the Ephesian church. It is always important to read the whole scripture in the context of all scripture, otherwise we come to unwarranted conclusions.“Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (Matt. 4:7, KJVS) The phrase 'be being filled with the Holy Spirit' from Eph. 5:18 does not cancel out the record of a crisis in which a man receives the fulness of the Spirit;“And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 9:17, KJVS)I think you have come to a point where you are striving too much to establish a single point and to demolish all others. I personally think it is most appropriate (and most natural) to pray to the Father, but I regard the very name of Jesus as a prayer "Saviour" which I [u]pray[/u] constantly. I also find an instinctive cry to the Spirit for continual fillings. Your error is to in trying to create a watertight doctrine in which it becomes, in the words of your web page, "disobedience" to pray to the Son or the Spirit. This takes your point much too far and makes it self-destructive.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 8:48Profile





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