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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I wonder if you have considered Christian hymns which are often just 'prayers' with music...



I was just thinking this same thing earlier this morning as I was listening to the old hymn 'I Surrender All'...

All to Jesus I surrender;
all to him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust him,
in his presence daily live.
Refrain:
I surrender all, I surrender all,
all to thee, my blessed Savior,
I surrender all.

2.All to Jesus I surrender;
humbly at his feet I bow,
worldly pleasures all forsaken;
take me, Jesus, take me now.
(Refrain)

3.All to Jesus I surrender;
make me, Savior, wholly thine;
fill me with thy love and power;
truly know that thou art mine.
(Refrain)

4.All to Jesus I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to thee;
fill me with thy love and power;
let thy blessing fall on me.
(Refrain)

5.All to Jesus I surrender;
now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to his name!
(Refrain)

Also, while reasoning this out from Scripture I was considering the following verses as they relate to this topic, first from John's gospel...

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (Joh 5:22-23)

Would not honoring the Son even as we honor the Father inculde asking things of Him?

And also this verse...

But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
(1Co 8:12)

If we sin against Christ in this manner, shouldn't we ask Christ Himself for forgiveness?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/19 13:11Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: The Schemes of the Devil

Brother Ron (InTheLight),
I am sorry, but I will address your post in my next post, I am answering some previous ones in this one.

Ron B, you said:

Quote:
In response still to your insistence that all prayer be to the Father alone, I wonder if you have considered Christian hymns which are often just 'prayers' with music... Your ban would eliminate hundreds of traditional hymns.


Ron, do you really think that I don’t know that? Don’t you realize that I know the implications of the things I say? I know very well that some – and maybe for some of you, many – of the things I say sound preposterous. They appear outright ludicrous if you consider all the implications as they pertain to worship, prayer, and Christian living in general. It is therefore a miracle that God has allowed this to be posted. It is for exactly this reason that I understood Him to say that the Church wouldn’t listen. I understand the objections of Jimbob very well. Especially since less than ten years ago I led an entire congregation in prayer to the Holy Spirit asking for exactly what Ernest O’Neill, R.A. Torrey and many highly regarded men of God have taught. I want to underscore this one more time: I DON’T INSIST YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO PRAYER OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER, BUT TO CONSIDER THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE WITHOUT THE ADDED INTERPRETATION OF ALL PREVIOUS SAINTS. I typed this in capitals, because I still haven’t been able to get some of the font functions to work on this Forum.

Dohzman, you said:
Quote:
I say that because I have dear brothers who don't consider a pray as such unless it's pre-fixed by "In Jesus' name" , and while I understand thier actions here , sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.


Saints at SI, I want you to consider the statement by Dohzman very carefully: “sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.” This is in line with a very popular phrase which is used very commonly in the Church: God looks at the heart; He doesn’t consider the “formula” as much as He considers the sincerity.

I am surprised that you would say that Dohzman, for this statement is not in my Bible. This is a humanistic interpretation of the love of God. This is what my Bible says:

Proverbs 1
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early [also diligently], but they shall NOT find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isaiah 66
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

The key to all obedience is the “trembling” at God’s word. This means that you take it so seriously that it will bring you to tremble, because of Its power and the implications if you change it.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Here is Paul writing a letter to the Ephesian Church, and I believe that it is applicable for today to. After all, the devil is still active according to my Bible. In verse 10 Paul started Ch.6:10 with the word FINALLY. Two verses later he explains that we wrestle against principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places.

How did Jesus cause the devil to walk? By quoting direct Scripture. He didn’t modify it, He didn’t say: I am the Son of God get away from me. No, He did what we should do too; He used the sword of the Spirit, the word of God. What has happened from the very early days of the Church? We started to debate the Trinity; we attempted to “dissect” God. And, even more troubling, we decided Who God really was. Of course, not everyone agreed with everyone else, so we started to “create” different waves of doctrine, all based on OUR UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLANANTION of Who God really is.

We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,” as some of you see this, to stand Firm Against the schemes of the devil. Paul was either by vision or physically (he doesn’t even appear to be certain himself) taken up to the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and he then writes a letter, which by the grace of God still exists today and explains explicitly how we are to stand firm against the devil and his minions, and we discount it in favor of the prayer of a dying man and/or what is written in Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (I say this to with joy and longing as an exclamation more than a prayer, and just in this context, for it isn’t a substitute for the Book of Ephesians).

If you are satisfied and continue to ask the Holy Spirit to fill you and anoint you, I am not telling you to stop. BUT, please allow me to continue with the next post. I will, God willing, go deeper into this subject, and pray that you will receive the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/19 13:36Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Hans,

At my conversion I was sitting alone in the wilderness in sand and ashes, with a gun in front of me and making the choice to live or die. Now no one was giving me the "gospel", but I knew if I were to go on living I would have to change. I cried out "SAVE ME JESUS! SAVE ME JESUS!". Did the Father hear that prayer? For it also was the prayer of a dying man.

 2005/10/19 14:18Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,”



What I'm thinking is, that because this account of Stephen's final prayer is in the Bible, then it [i]is[/i] part of the "formula". I would consider a substitute to be something outside of Scripture. The Bible says Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he looked and saw God in His glory on His throne and Jesus at His right hand. To Jesus he made petition, receive my spirit and lay not this sin against them.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/19 14:28Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Basically what I was getting at was a kind of, how does Bro. Ron say it?, Magic word. By praying a formula, even the "Our Father Prayer " can be a formula, we make God out to be our servant and seperate from Him His soverienty. By in large people think that by adding Jesus name or praying to the Father in Jesus name it's like a "magic word" that makes the pray acceptable. Our prayers must be born out of a relationship and a walk of obedience to His Word , with honesty from the heart at all times.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/10/19 14:49Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: The Schemes of the Devil

Ron (InTheLight),

Quote:
If we sin against Christ in this manner, shouldn't we ask Christ Himself for forgiveness?


1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If I am correct, the context of this Scripture would lead us to confess our sin to God the Father and receive forgiveness from God the Father, because of the shed blood of Christ. Christ already paid the price all the sin of the entire world “once for all,” so we can obtain freedom from the clutches of the devil.

1John 2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Bob (jimbob),
I quote the following excerpt from:

http://www.thefinalcall.net/?Perfected_in_Unity

“A number of years ago, I met a young lady who was a Bahai. She had a beautiful spirit and I wanted to share my faith in Christ with her. I thought that she would make a beautiful Christian. One day we met and I started to share with her about my love for Jesus. I also asked how she came to be a Bahai. She smiled and said: “Silly, I was a Christian but I wasn’t being fulfilled. I knew there had to be more, so I asked Jesus to tell me. “He” told me that I should become a Bahai. I know that “he” led me on the right path because now I experience the fullness of God.”

To this day I still wonder what would have happened if she had asked the Father in Jesus’ name?”

After your testimony jimbob, I have to conclude that may be she wasn’t “pre-destined.” But I don’t even want to go there, for it is another distraction. I praise the Lord for you, that He answered you. Yours is not the only testimony I have heard. I know a number of people who have had similar experiences as yours, yet one of my best friends committed suicide after similar cries unto the Lord. His weren’t answered. I talked to him for months; he was serious and desperate. The worst thing was that it was clear that just before he died, he attempted to get himself free from the cord he had rigged. Jimbob, it almost caused me to walk away from my belief in God. We can go into a long debate why or why not, but it will only sidetrack us from where I believe we should go, before we question every step. There is a point that has to brought into this: our reconciliation to the Father. It is a critical part of this.

Dear friends, I don’t have all the answers, all I have is the Bible and what I believe the Lord has told me. I am willing to complete to share what I believe He has shown me, or, just go to my website, for I wrote it there too. If you believe that the prayer of Jesus to His Father in John 17:23 is displayed through the Church of the year 2005, I will cease and desist. This is not a threat, please don’t even think that. If it wasn’t for the Joy in the Lord I have, I would run from this. Just writing it on my own website is much simpler, but this Forum allows a discussion. Let us please keep an open mind and consider the topic at hand in light of the schemes of the devil who – the Bible tells us – is transformed as an angel of light.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/19 15:32Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi hans, you have an interesting angle on things, you said:

Quote:
I am not adamant about this by reason of logic. I believe it more to be what is inside of me.

Is this personal revelation, been scrutinized by the breadth of scripture? It appears to me that what you are saying is correct, but partly so. There are many versus that have been quoted that throw another light on the interpretation of the word of God in regards to this matter.

This is dangerous stuff you are posting here, by saying these things you are closing any doors to possible genuine doubts and concerns of where your 'insides' are going...
Quote:
...do you really think that I don’t know that? Don’t you realize that I know the implications of the things I say? I know very well that some – and maybe for some of you, many – of the things I say sound preposterous. They appear outright ludicrous if you consider all the implications as they pertain to worship, prayer, and Christian living in general. It is therefore a miracle that God has allowed this to be posted. It is for exactly this reason that I understood Him to say that the Church wouldn’t listen.

If you browse through the archives of this site you may come across a group of threads dealing with the prophetic call, ministry and outworking of it. There was one member of this community who starting posting as in speaking in the first person for God. It caused quite a stir, because he basically had the same thinking that you have posted above for validating his message ie God gave me this message, and he knew that you wouldn't believe me sort of thing . Please be aware at this stage of my postings on this topic I have'nt even begun to speak about your reasoning on prayer. At the momment there is just a flag waving. You asked us at SI to test what you are saying, and to me I have a check, the whole truth is not there.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/10/19 15:38Profile
bluinos
Member



Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:

By in large people think that by adding Jesus name or praying to the Father in Jesus name it's like a "magic word" that makes the pray acceptable. Our prayers must be born out of a relationship and a walk of obedience to His Word , with honesty from the heart at all times.

Jesus Speaking,

John 14:13,14 (New Privilege In Prayer)
And whatever you ask in My name that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If you ask ANYTHING in My name, I will do it.

If you ask anything in the name of Jesus, that he will do. If and only If it is aligned with God's perfect will. Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Walking in Obedience to his word, is walking in love. It is walking in obedience to his commandments.

When making your petitions and your request known to the father in prayer, if your heart is not right, you will know in your spirit.

From my own personal experience, this is when I've had to stop, repent ask the Lord to create in me a clean heart, (Psalm 51:10)release any past hurts and offense, forgive and start over.

It is then and only then, that I have been able to seal my request with the name that is above all names, (In Jesus Name)








 2005/10/19 17:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
You asked us at SI to test what you are saying, and to me I have a check, the whole truth is not there.

At the moment I am still struggling to get a hold on what Hans is advocating here. I have visited the website and can pick up the atmosphere but what is the issue here? Are you saying that if all prayer is made to the Father alone that something will change somewhere. Are you just wanting us to stop using the phrase 'in the name of Jesus' ('though I haven't used it for decades!)? Or are you trying to say something about the relative 'importance' of the Father and the Son? If it is the simple message The Father reconciled the entire world to Himself through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We must pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.

If we pray differently, we are disobedient. as displayed on your website, then I reject that as a 'word from God' to the church at this time.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/19 18:19Profile
lamuskrat
Member



Joined: 2005/10/3
Posts: 117
Gonzales, La

 Re:

Though I respect Hans' belief and sincerity, I would have to disagree too. After reading his statements, he has basically made all of our conversions questionable.

As a sinner your first prayer has to be to Jesus for it is His blood that washes away all sin. This has to be correct because God cannot look upon sin, so you could not enter into his presence without the blood "being applied".

I really don't believe this "who we pray to" issue is bothering God as much as some would think. First God is not the author of confusion, and by making God the Father the one whom all your prayer and supplications go to, it sort of diminishes Christs and the Holy Spirits role in our lives.

Christ is the focal point, all praise and Glory is to go to Him, He is your elder brother, the great High priest, King og kings and Lord of lords
He is the Savior of your soul. In fact God the Father even steps (relinquishes His due Honor and Glory) aside and commands all honor goes to Jesus
Christ, His son.


_________________
Mike Androne

 2005/10/19 19:21Profile





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