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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In some prayer meetings we wave flags (the Banner of the Lord), build altars, ask for a Michael or Gabriel anointing, or in one I was asked just to beat on an African drum “in the Spirit,” again, to increase the flow of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.


The deeper into the woods we go, the more nuts we find! ;-)

Quote:
Everything comes down to a very simple point: why are some Christians so keen to involve themselves with all kinds of activities that appear rather foreign to the practices we see in the Bible.


Hi Hans, isn't this my line? :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/17 10:55Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
The Christians who participate in these meetings are usually the more passionate seekers of “more of the Spirit.” They come from every denomination and you find them in many, if not most of our churches. It is for this reason that I am strongly convicted, confirmed by the “word” I spoke about, to no longer trust man, but to strictly follow Scripture’s instructions for the “strengthening of my inner man by His Spirit,” so that Christ may dwell in my heart by faith.



Dear Brother Hans,

Thank you for your giving us an understanding of where you are coming from based on your previous experience. I believe you have stated that you have been walking with the Lord for over 20 years and so your experience is much greater than mine and I respect the knowledge you have gleaned from your walk and wisdom with which you openly and honestly share your testimony. I come from a Christian home and said the “sinner’s prayer when I was 11 years old but I have only really been walking with the Lord for just over 4 years (I’m 43 now), still a babe in Christ really, but I rejoice greatly and praise God for the testimony of His Spirit with mine that I am a child of God, to Him be all the glory!

Though I am not as experienced as you are in walking with the Lord I believe I may still have something of value to contribute to our discussions as the Lord leads. One thing that I have learned in my observations of many in the Church is the extremes we go to when we tend to focus too closely on certain facets, or views, of God and of the Body of Christ. One look at the whole Calvinism/Armenian debate is enough to demonstrate this. The Calvanists see God as sovereign, they focus on that particular facet of His character to the point of possibly overlooking other facets. The Armenians see God in the facet of His moral character sometimes overlooking other facets. It goes on and on with many different groups polarizing around many different facets of our amazing God. We surely need the illumination of the Spirit to pull back and see the whole diamond as it were, instead of just one or a few facets, to see God as a Father.

I think it is also valuable to pull back and look at the Body of Christ as a whole, for when we look at just particular facets of the Body it is easy to be confused about why so many different interpreations of Scripture can come from a people baptized into the one Body of Christ by the Spirit. As someone on this forum has said, unity is not so much about consensus as it is about humilty and esteem.

I am not promoting ecumenicalism in its broadest sense here, certain foundational truths must be adhered to but perhaps we can agree to trust the Spirit to help us in testing every word that we hear, and be good Bereans. There is a wealth of anointed speakers on this site who have been greatly used of God in exhorting, encouraging, and edifying the Body. As Paul could say “be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ”, so also can these say as God has set them as shepherds of His sheep. If we see no fruit in these men than we can be fairly certain they are not of the Vine, but if we do, perhaps we can allow ourselves consider that God is working in and through them for the benefit of the Body? Let’s not reject every branch because some bear thorns.


In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/10/17 12:22Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Hans,

Quote:
The Christians who participate in these meetings are usually the more passionate seekers of “more of the Spirit.” They come from every denomination and you find them in many, if not most of our churches.



I am thankful that over the years as spiritual fads have come and gone that my pastor has consistently reminded the congregation that God gives us His Spirit that we might serve Him. What doth it profit to seek more power or experience for mere power or experience sake.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to [u]preach[/u] good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to [u]bind up[/u] the brokenhearted, to [u]proclaim[/u] liberty to the captives, and the [u]opening[/u] of the prison to them that are bound; To [u]proclaim[/u] the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to [u]comfort[/u] all that mourn; (Isaiah 61)

I have shared in some of the experiences you mention, being a Pentecostal. I used to follow all the 'power based' ministries that seemed to lend to a deeper spiritual experience with the Holy Spirit. I suppose we could say things were a bit 'mystical' as much as Spiritual. But, the seeking of experiences for experience sake is an open invitation to Flakesville.

I think it comes about as the result of desiring to express our faith in just about any way but a biblical one. Is it not spiritual to minister to the poor and comfort those who are mourning? Is in not spiritual to share Christ? Is it not spiritual to visit those in prison and clothe the naked? But unfortunately these are not the spiritual experiences I was looking for in those days.

I soon came to learn that Spirituality is walking in the Spirit fully submitted to God. My hunger for more of God could be quenched in getting about the Master's business. What good would a revival be if we had not gotten about the Master's business in a renewed way afterward? Its not about the 'experience' and what we can get out of God- it is about God preparing us for His service.

You asked about the whole WWJD thing? Is it ironic that the whole phenomena was started in [url=http://cjonline.com/webindepth/sheldon/stories/031200_sheldonwwjd.shtml]Topeka, Kansas[/url]; the same home of Stones Folly where the Rev. W. Parham forged his doctrine of [i]initial Evidence[/i]? Topeka is considered by many to be the origin of the modern day Pentecostal movement.

The whole issue of "What Would Jesus Do?" as far as we are concerned centers in the leading of the Holy Spirit. The bracelets were not intended to take the place of the Holy Spirit, but were a reminder that we need to do the works of Christ and if we are not; why not? Are you filled with the Spirit?

The Jews used many icons to 'remind' them of God. Tzitzit, philacteries, mazuza, etc. We DO have the Holy Spirit as our ever present guide. When we are walking in the Spirit the thrust of our 'experience' in Him is that we do what He is leading us to do; i.e. those things that one would do if the Spirit of the Lord were upon them, etc.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/17 13:34Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:


Quote:
Everything comes down to a very simple point: why are some Christians so keen to involve themselves with all kinds of activities that appear rather foreign to the practices we see in the Bible.


To answer your question simply but not gibly, they believe there must be something else, something more. The reason for this is because the results of modern day christianity seem to be so far removed from its original base.

Getting a bit proactive about where I would like to go, what according to you are the practises we see in the bible? If you know anything of my history you will know how I have often wrestled with substance and form on this site.

I think for the sake of universal agreement of terms, I should say, what is the way of Christ? I am asking this not as a general shotgun spray effect of everyday life but in specific reference to what you are talking about.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/10/17 13:47Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Mike, Freecd, InThe Light, and all Brothers and Sisters at SI

Quote:
Hi Hans, isn't this my line?


Yes Ron, and contrary to the impression I may have left with some, it is one of my most quoted Scriptures, especially in light of prayer.
Quote:
One look at the whole Calvinism/Armenian debate is enough to demonstrate this.


I will not even enter into the debate whether I am a Calvinist or Armenian, whether it is important to be pre-, post-, etc., (I have my understanding), I have been painted by Christians with a number of their “doctrinal” brushes. They only divide the Body, have nothing to do with walking “in the Spirit,” or salvation. The most important issues are: knowing God intimately and understanding the schemes of the devil. Prayer is an extremely important part of that, if not the most. I will explain - and I pray that the Lord will confirm this in your spirit - why I believe this.
Quote:
But, the seeking of experiences for experience sake is an open invitation to Flakesville.


I would go quite a bit further, if it was only Flakesville, we may possibly smile or shake our head. I would call it Bondageville straight from Hell, given by the one who is transformed as an angel of light.
Quote:
Getting a bit proactive about where I would like to go, what according to you are the practises we see in the bible? If you know anything of my history you will know how I have often wrestled with substance and form on this site.


No, I don’t know your history but it may tie in to this quote from another response:
Quote:
Though I am not as experienced as you are in walking with the Lord I believe I may still have something of value to contribute to our discussions as the Lord leads. One thing that I have learned in my observations of many in the Church is the extremes we go to when we tend to focus too closely on certain facets, or views, of God and of the Body of Christ.


I pray that you will believe me that I “am not more experienced” in walking with the Lord. I believe that the Lord has shown me a lot of things and that He has given me a message for the Church. But I give this very humbly, because if this is truly from God, I better trust Him and nothing of myself. Having said that, I have to explain my experiences, because they – I believe – were led by the Lord.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If I trust the Lord for my salvation and for the leading of His Spirit, I also have to believe Him that He has created me for a purpose. This applies to every true believer. Each one of us should know the good works, God has ordained for them before. If it is not clear, we have to wait and seek Him until He leads the way. We cannot for one moment rely on anyone else to give us the instructions. They have to come from our Lord. The working of His Spirit in us shouldn’t just keep us from sin, but should also lead us in His service.

I have made this statement before and I will make it again: Jesus didn’t trust Himself to men, because He knew what was in men. If Christ is fully formed in us by the working of His Spirit, we too, should know what is in men. The problem that has arisen is that well-meaning Christians and I know for a fact, very Godly men decided that when one is “filled with the Spirit,” one should have all the strength required to be able to stop all sin which results from the lust of the flesh. I still have a hard time reconciling an uncontrollable rage as “a desire to sin,” which most of the lusts of the flesh are. Be that as it may, the conclusion I have to come to in light of this, is that I wasn’t filled with the Holy Spirit, because I didn’t have the strength needed to stop what I detested about myself.

In spite of that, did I hear from the Holy Spirit? Did He guide me? One night I was woken up and “told” to confront a pastor, because he was in disobedient, according to the “word” I received. I was to tell him that he had to repent, or God would remove him from his position. This was the first time this happened and it made me very uncomfortable. The question one may ask is: was it maybe the devil, for by the “definition” suggested in another post, I needed to be filled, or baptized “in the Spirit.” The fact is that I did confront that pastor who told me that God’s Will would be done. He was right, three months later he was dismissed from his denomination.

An exact similar incident happened a few years later. In this case the pastor I confronted confessed and repented. I realize that you have to take my word for this, for I will not give names, or details. This is the case for many of my testimonies, for most involve “confidential” information. One thing I do know is that the information I received always led to healing after repentance, and if no repentance took place there would clearly be no healing. What you at SI have to decide is if what I heard was really God, or was I deceived by the evil one?

I am convinced that I heard from God. My life was entirely changed. I was led to read my Bible, and I don’t mean a five-minute-once-in-a-while pre-chewed positive message. I had the urge and desire to pray and seek God, every day, twice a day, and I told people about Jesus. God spoke to me from very early on in my walk, yet it took years for the ”last” stronghold to be revealed and dealt with. The forming of Christ in me was a steady and gradual, for I prayed and asked the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ every day since I was a brand new Christian, for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, as is written in Ephesians 1, and when I got a clear understanding of Ephesians 3:14-21 I added that to my daily prayer.

I will stop here and if you have no questions I will prepare a next post with more of what I want to share.

Mike, do you want me to change this thread or can I continue?


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/17 16:07Profile
bluinos
Member



Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


 Re:

Brother Robert W,

It is very "Spiritual" ministering to the poor. Did not Jesus say, when I was hungry you fed me? When I was thirsty you gave me something to drink? What you have done to the least of these you have done unto me.

I can only hope that it is his Spirit in me that would cause me to feel naseous to run out of a room to groan and mourn uncontrollably for unbelievers, for those who know that God is calling them and yet they are hesitant.

(Rom 8:26 -- but the Spirit HIMSELF makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered).

Quote:

Its not about the 'experience' and what we can get out of God- it is about God preparing us for His service.

I agree but many times we forget the process that comes with this preparation, the breaking, the molding, the being empty so that you can be filled AGAIN.

Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we no longer need to be processed, or prepared we have arrived?

Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we no longer need to be broken?

Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we will no longer be empty, but will forever be full?

LORD, if I am empty - Fill Me
LORD, if I am prideful - Break Me
LORD, if I am slacking - Shake Me





 2005/10/17 16:08Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi bluinos,

Very good. :-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/17 16:18Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am convinced that I heard from God. My life was entirely changed. I was led to read my Bible, and I don’t mean a five-minute-once-in-a-while pre-chewed positive message. I had the urge and desire to pray and seek God, every day, twice a day, and I told people about Jesus. God spoke to me from very early on in my walk, yet it took years for the ”last” stronghold to be revealed and dealt with. The forming of Christ in me was a steady and gradual, for I prayed and asked the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ every day since I was a brand new Christian, for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, as is written in Ephesians 1, and when I got a clear understanding of Ephesians 3:14-21 I added that to my daily prayer.



Can relate to much of this, in my case the daily prayer has been from Colossians 1:9-12...

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (Colossians 1:9-12)


Quote:
I will stop here and if you have no questions I will prepare a next post with more of what I want to share.



Please continue...


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/17 22:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Mike, do you want me to change this thread or can I continue?


Oh please do continue Hans, these threads have a way of taking on a different character and flavor as they progress. It was just a thought at the time.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/10/17 23:32Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Mike, Freecd, InThe Light, and all Brothers and Sisters at SI

Hi Mike,

Quote:
Oh please do continue Hans, these threads have a way of taking on a different character and flavor as they progress. It was just a thought at the time.


PLease forgive me, but I am starting a new thread. After the post of "jimbob" on It is NOT normal to sin, But....? I don't see much of an option. I do other things besides reading posts on this Forum (this is NOT a jab, but merely an explanation), I find it difficult to follow more than one thread at the time, for I pray about them and that requires time too.

Besides that, I want to write for my own website too.

The new thread is called Schemes of the Devil.

Thank you all for your patience. I appreciate your willingness to consider what I say.



_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/18 13:18Profile





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