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Joined: 2005/10/10
Posts: 5


I like that

You really know that guy

He's critical of the other guy


Critical spirit

hub :-(

 2005/10/14 19:09Profile

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Bubba: If you have read any of my posts on the subject you'd know that while I do believe it is the end times, I call for the church to humble themselves before A Soveriegn Holy God and pray and seek His Face. I've never mentioned anything of the sort as to selling all, I left that to Jesus :-)


 2005/10/14 22:42Profile

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Wow! now that spoke into my own life. I was talking to an African Bishop who's here from Kenya and he was making a statement simular to the one you quoted out of LK. We were just eating lunch and I mentioned to him something of the american church and he mentioned something of that scripture and took an instant out of his life to draw a point. Now to read it a second time. Time to take notes :-?


 2005/10/14 23:07Profile

Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.


Bubbaguy wrote:
(Personnally, I discount Revelation altogether as indeciferable. My faith is to get up every day and do my best under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of Jesus. Let the future take care of itself.)

It is really so sad that people who profess to be christians, can so casually toss out scripture and not bother to ask Holy Spirit for His help in understanding.. The book of Revelation is the only book in the bible that promises a blessing for those that read it..
Rev.1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I offer the following advice..
2co 13:15 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


 2005/10/14 23:43Profile

Joined: 2005/10/15
Posts: 7
Kansas City

 Re: bubbaguy

What your really saying when you say to be carefull is that you are afraid of being wrong. So you would rather not be wrong than be prepared for a future that God told us about.

There are more books out today about the end of the age than ever before, and its on more christians minds than before. People are thinking about it.

To be ignorant of a future (Rev) that God wrote down in His book, is not wisdom.


 2005/10/15 2:41Profile

Joined: 2005/9/23
Posts: 4
South Africa


I agree. Without the benefit of reading through prophetic revelation and then taking a considered look at the world around us, it would seem safest to take the position that “hey, how many times have people said it’s the end”. But when you look at end time prophesy what’s left to be fulfilled? Not much. And right now our various governments are giving away more and more power to supranational bodies, and the various religions of the world, including liberal Christianity, are looking more like one another every day (you believe what you want and I believe what I want but it’s all the same and we all get to go to heaven, it’s all about you and there’s no such thing as sin...) all very disturbing.

Natural disasters are increasing in number and magnitude, and while you might want to argue it’s not, just keep watching the news and you’ll find it increasingly hard to deny.

It is my firm belief we are living in the end times, but even if it were not we should live as though it is. As my childhood pastor always said regarding the second coming “When He comes, I goes”.

 2005/10/15 8:41Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Wretches of weathermen we are

What your really saying when you say to be carefull is that you are afraid of being wrong. So you would rather not be wrong than be prepared for a future that God told us about.

Not necessarily, in fact could but wish that we were more afraid of being wrong by courting words and attributing them to God.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Bubba guy does have a point worth taking into account on this. Here is just one of the many items to take into consideration:

[b][u]The Black Death: Bubonic Plague[/u][/b]

In the early 1330s an outbreak of deadly bubonic plague occurred in China. The bubonic plague mainly affects rodents, but fleas can transmit the disease to people. Once people are infected, they infect others very rapidly. Plague causes fever and a painful swelling of the lymph glands called buboes, which is how it gets its name. The disease also causes spots on the skin that are red at first and then turn black.

Since China was one of the busiest of the world's trading nations, it was only a matter of time before the outbreak of plague in China spread to western Asia and Europe. In October of 1347, several Italian merchant ships returned from a trip to the Black Sea, one of the key links in trade with China. When the ships docked in Sicily, many of those on board were already dying of plague. Within days the disease spread to the city and the surrounding countryside. An eyewitness tells what happened:

"Realizing what a deadly disaster had come to them, the people quickly drove the Italians from their city. But the disease remained, and soon death was everywhere. Fathers abandoned their sick sons. Lawyers refused to come and make out wills for the dying. Friars and nuns were left to care for the sick, and monasteries and convents were soon deserted, as they were stricken, too. Bodies were left in empty houses, and there was no one to give them a Christian burial."

The disease struck and killed people with terrible speed. The Italian writer Boccaccio said its victims often

"ate lunch with their friends and dinner with their ancestors in paradise."
By the following August, the plague had spread as far north as England, where people called it "The Black Death" because of the black spots it produced on the skin. A terrible killer was loose across Europe, and Medieval medicine had nothing to combat it.

In winter the disease seemed to disappear, but only because fleas--which were now helping to carry it from person to person--are dormant then. Each spring, the plague attacked again, killing new victims. After five years 25 million people were dead--one-third of Europe's people.

Even when the worst was over, smaller outbreaks continued, not just for years, but for centuries. The survivors lived in constant fear of the plague's return, and the disease did not disappear until the 1600s.

Medieval society never recovered from the results of the plague. So many people had died that there were serious labor shortages all over Europe. This led workers to demand higher wages, but landlords refused those demands. By the end of the 1300s peasant revolts broke out in England, France, Belgium and Italy.

The disease took its toll on the church as well. People throughout Christendom had prayed devoutly for deliverance from the plague. Why hadn't those prayers been answered? A new period of political turmoil and philosophical questioning lay ahead.

Black Death - Disaster Strikes
25 million people died in just under five years between 1347 and 1352. Estimated population of Europe from 1000 to 1352.

1000 38 million
1100 48 million
1200 59 million
1300 70 million
1347 75 million
1352 50 million

Read through the accounts there, it's a pretty broad picture of what was going on at the time.
What might have been the attitudes of mind during such a time of utter devastation? Surely to them, "this is it" must have been foremost in their minds. Right on through history, all the wars, disasters, the Holocaust, the nuclear arms race, aids, the threat of even another pandemic. Wars, wars, rumors of wars...

This is something that I have been musing on much in a lot of areas, from just observing the discussion here and the questions and reasonings that come forth.

And it's this; Is it not possible to hold seemingly different thoughts in tension without having to come to a conclusion? More so, feeling compelled to make grey, black and white? Can one still be in the 'middle' without holding that as some kind of safe ground, "sitting on the fence"?

For instance, the running thread on Christians and war, being in the service, whether to resist evil or not in the context of what Jesus meant carries over into the protection of the innocent and not so innocent ... who's truly 'innocent' to begin with? There isn't an easy answer, not as we would like to have it, an explanation for everything under the sun. It seems there is far too much ease in making assumptions about what is current to say that which is beyond our knowing. And that is in both directions.

We know the things the Lord warned us about, we know from scripture "all these things must come to pass". We know what Peter stated, but I wonder if we forget the message that he was trying to drive home:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is this not the same sentiment as:

Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Can almost feel the retort of this being some kind of dodge, that this is the same scripture that always gets pulled out as if it was to buttress up one side of the equation. But that is not it either. The tension I am trying to drive at is in both and that is in 'knowing' and not 'knowing'.

A couple to chew on:

Jam 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Have more or less been under the impression that it is in not knowing, not being in control, that the day of death is understood on Gods end and timetable but is a given on ours, though it may come as a great surprise and THAT is where we find ourselves in the predicament.

If there is a constant bent to make 'prophecy' so much futuristic sport it ought to seem obvious enough that we are going to lose more than we win.
If you haven't strayed into the world of gambling, it is still similar. Take betting on football. You are presenting an opinion based on what knowledge you have, what 'facts' you can gather, past history and measuring the opponent. But the game hasn't been played yet. The twists and turns, injuries, the tricks up your opponents sleeves, mistakes, penalties so many factors you couldn't possibly know in advance. And do those taking the bet's not know what they are doing? Of course they don't always get it right either, but I can tell you from experience they hold the upper hand because they are dictating the terms by manner of the point spread. How they manage to figure that out is beyond me. But it is the point of this whole poor analogy, that it is futile and stupidity to play games of chance and maybe to get at the core of it all, that is the essence of what the Lord was trying to drive home in what He said regarding all that we might speculate about.

Again, this game of chance:

[i]For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.[/i]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 [b]And this is the condemnation[/b], that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

What is not a large part of the fear of the Lord but in not knowing? That we are mere creatures that have no control over times and seasons and events and circumstances ultimately. We may petition the Lord, but He is still Lord and Sovereign nonetheless. He that gives breath and therefore life snatches it back at His own discretion and us forgetting [i]"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.[/i] Job 38:4

How many of us might be quickly silenced if tomorrow found us in Jobs predicament. And by the way, who was it that brought the destruction upon Job and his family? Did he have any clue whatsoever about it before hand?

This is long I know, but over and over again look how Jesus dealt with things future and things speculative asked of Him by His disciples, the parables He used, the point He was making and the manner of what He was addressing. Be sober, be humble, be ready. What difference does it make if it's one or 25,000 or 25 million ... Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Am of the opinion both that we are on the collision course of that which is spoken of in 2 Tim 3 even if that can be taken back from the time it was spoken until now. Growing worse and worse, it is obvious enough. At the same time to say 'I don't know' to current events, that they are a wake up call or to go to the opposite extreme and say they are not is not a cop out. Just think "I don't know" is certainly much more honest than pretending that I do. Today is the day of decision. Now.

Lastly, and we have been around this time and again;
Personnally, I discount Revelation altogether as indeciferable. My faith is to get up every day and do my best under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of Jesus. Let the future take care of itself.

Not sure which side of the equation the discount is going other than previous discussions, hope it is leaning on the creature side of things, which also buttress's the point somewhat. This seems to be an advance on dismissing it altogether if I recall correctly?...

Here's my fear in all of this. We want an explanation for everything and we are not going to get it. We want to measure God and all the vast and incredible mysteries down to our level of understanding. The more we do that the more we in effect attempt to make God our image bearer and that is a seriously flawed image. And instead of the other way around we divide off into camps one for and one against, pitting them against each other, in doctrine and interpretation over secondary and speculative matters. It ends up doing the exact opposite of what the Lord would have us to be.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And it seems we care little about that serious injunction and even less of the last part ...
[i]that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/i] This penchant to jump to extremes or compromise, a sloppy ecumenicism, it is with certainty that is not what the Lord had in mind making that statement. Just find it rather difficult that the first basic understandings of what manner we ought to be, humbled, teachable, thankful for the mercies and longsuffering of God, the patience shown to such dull and slow to grasp wretches that we are, to lay down our pride and puffed up knowledge, that the stubbornness of selfishness won't relent on long held 'traditions' even if they clearly contradict Gods word and that is including 'us' of a more Protestant persuasion. Ever wonder why a great many Catholics want nothing to do with 'us' types?
Why they prefer one leader to sift everything through? Could it be because by and large all we have to show them is mass confusion and endless division. It doesn't make it right but hard to fault them.

What about:

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Can we still hold that at the same time as this:

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

It begs the question, who's approval?

Mike Balog

 2005/10/15 11:48Profile

Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands


Hi Smokey!

It is really so sad that people who profess to be christians, can so casually toss out scripture and not bother to ask Holy Spirit for His help in understanding.. The book of Revelation is the only book in the bible that promises a blessing for those that read it..
Rev.1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Isn't this written too:

[b]Revelation 22:18[/b]
[i]18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:[/i]

Apart from the fact that its easy to add things by falsely interpretation.. there are also much people (often cults) who dismiss certain scripture in revelation or add to it by own scripture.

These disasters written down in this book have not come upon these people who have already died!
So are the words in this book really ment for the people living in this time? (Like blessed is he who reads.. etc)

People who have changed things in this book (or something else in the Bible) still have to face God about this. Its not that anyone can get away from adding/subtracting/changing Gods Word.

Have patience with me if I'm wrong! :-)

@ csschk, wow good post to think about.

Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/16 12:42Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


whether one believes the end is near or not (personally i do just so we're clear) the Lord wants us to repent, repent, repent and repent some more. let's not be ignorant of the imminent return of our Lord and let each one of us look to Him to prepare us lest we be swept away by the the Lord's judgement/correction.

let us all fall on our faces and repent.

Farai Bamu

 2005/10/16 17:43Profile

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


i believe that bubbaguy hit on something very important to christianity. Jesus said that before abraham was I AM. . we are told that we must believe that HE IS and that He IS a rewarder of those who seek Him. we know that faith IS the substance of things hoped for. we know that today is the day of salvation. the only way the foolish virgins were foolish is that they were not prepared in the now. we are instructed to take no thought for tomorrow. end time events are in good hands or should i say in God,s hands. i have no conrol over anything that will happen in the future and am not even guaranteed another day of life. i am only to be prepared to meet a HOLY GOD NOW!!! i am not concerned about the seven years of tribulation nearly as mush as the eternal tribulation. jimp

 2005/10/17 1:14Profile

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