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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:


Quote:
This is true according to God's foreknowledge. But when does it become true for those who become heirs with Christ?

Where does obedience to the commands of Christ fit into these theological thoughts?



Much of what we are is through identification with Christ and His finished work. To the degree in which we allow our faith to develope in this identification, we will suceed as christians


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D.Miller

 2005/10/11 13:12Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Dozman wrote:

Quote:
Much of what we are is through identification with Christ



By what means does one realize this "identification?"

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/11 13:39Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Faith


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D.Miller

 2005/10/11 13:40Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
By what means does one realize this "identification?"

the answer to this is the essence of the disagreement between Tozer and Nee.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/11 14:11Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
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 Re:

If all else fails, remember that Tozer was probably right :)



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Jimmy H

 2005/10/11 14:14Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother dohzman wrote:

Quote:
Faith



Does faith find its roots in man or God?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/11 14:44Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Everything God does and gives is through faith or in the agency of "faith".



Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Faith is a pretty exhaustive subject, I sure you know the passages too.Faith can be closely associated with conscience but isn't nessarily dependent upon the condition of the conscience as much as the response .


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D.Miller

 2005/10/11 15:01Profile
coops
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Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re: Tozer vs. Nee - On: The Holy Spirit

Yeah that is they key though, both Nee and Tozer are firm that faith is foundational. Nee calls it "reckoning" (looking back at the FACTS) and Tozer calls it "aprehending God".

So we have well established that faith is the key and that these theological interpretations could well differ, but may not.

I once read/heard somewhere that alot of theological differences are a result of not grasping the vastness of God. In our small minds they seem to conflict, but in God's master plan they go togther somewhow. I don't know if that was just somebody's cop-out to become a christian "pluralist" in theology, or something we could all think about. *shrugs* :-)

I'll come back to the dead/dying thing a little later, I just wanted to ask about the filling of the spirit.

Some quotes from Nee ([url=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/nee/normal.html]The Normal Christian Life[/url] - Chapter 8)are below, how do they fit in with Tozer's views? Or are they opposite?

Talking on [url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Acts%202:33&version=9;]Acts 2:33[/url], he says

Quote:

"The question of what [i]we[/i] are does not come into consideration at all here, but only what [i]He[/i] is. He is glorified; therefore the Spirit is poured out... The exaltation of the Lord Jesus is the basis on which the Spirit has been given... Now the principle on which we recieve the Spirit of enduement of the Holy Spirit is the very same as that on which we recieve forgiveness of sins... Then is it possible that the Son of God has been glorified and you have not recieved the Spirit? Never!...



Now heres the strongest part:
Quote:
As for forgiveness, so equally for the coming upon us of the Holy Spirit, the whole question is one of faith. As soon as we see the Lord Jesus on the Cross, we know our sins are forgiven; and as soon as we see the Lord Jesus on the Throne, we know the Holy Spirit has been poured out upon us. The basis upon which we receive the enduement of the Holy Spirit is not our praying and fasting and waiting, but the exaltation of Christ. Those who emphasize tarrying and hold ‘tarrying meetings’ only mislead us, for the gift is not for the ‘favoured few’ but for all, because it is not given on the ground of what we are at all, but of what Christ is. The Spirit has been poured out to prove His goodness and greatness, not ours. Christ has been crucified, therefore we have been forgiven: Christ has been glorified, therefore we have been endued with power from on high. It is all because of Him.



Thanks for all your responses, I'd love to hear you how can reconcile this :-)


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Coops

 2005/10/11 18:45Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I guess I don't see much conflict in thier theology, they both believe ,as I also believe, that the Holy Spirit is evidence of the resurrected, ascended and enthroned Christ. Thier methods seem to differ though.

Personally I think to some faith comes easier in acceptance of what Christ has done, where others , it would seem , need to work through or have things in them worked through inorder to recieve the Holy Spirit.


Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
I believe that literally is be being filled.....etc... I think Ron Bailey made mention of that in another post but I can't find the reference.
Watchman Nee had some mystical doctrine too though, Have you ever read "The Latient(sp?) Power of Man"? From his perspective he attributed an aweful lot of ,looking for words here.....almost god like abilities or attributes to man before the fall, and believed that they were still present but somehow hidden after the fall but still present. So I see in most of his writtings a more man based approach to the Holy Spirit (by man based, more of a almost assuming the recieving of). Boy I don't know if I did that justice :-?
I know what I would like to say but just don't know how to go about it without along long explaination.I'll stop here.


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D.Miller

 2005/10/11 19:35Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Tozer vs. Nee

For what it is worth, I have that book and a number more. I loved to read and study Nee's work, but as of the last few years, a number of questions such as you touch on dohzman, have made me very uneasy about some of the things he wrote.

I am much more inclined to stick with God's word and ask for God's wisdom and insight.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/11 19:45Profile





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