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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The Bible records the history of man's growing relationship with God. As we have come up from primative times, the relationship evolved and this is reflected in the differing presentation styles and progression of the books within it.

Just what Bible are you talking about. My Bible records the history of man's lost relationship with God as a result of his disobedience. My Bible says man fell downwards not upwards.

Quote:
It is inspired by God and recorded and passed down through the generations by fallible man.

and who decides which bits are 'fallible'? fallible man?

Quote:
Yet, it is full of Truths and provides the basis for understanding and accepting salvation from sin through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. It is worthy of study and consideration in the guidance of our lives and provides many fine examples of how people have dealt with this sinful and evil world.

Can you see how selective this passage is? It is full of truths but not the Truth. The Truth I presume can only be revealed to infallible men who 'inner light' is never fallible.

Quote:
It teaches universal, unconditional love, and that is the most important thing in it.

But how can you believe it when it teaches such things, knowing that it has been recorded and passed down through generations by fallible man?

It is God's revelation of the true condition of man as a result of sin and sins. As such it claims, for itself, infallibility. Christ believed in its infallibility, so did George Fox and the early Quakers, and in its verbal inspiration, but it seems that is not sufficient for you. You must subject these things to your own judgement rather than trusting His. You prefer to put your faith in a man's fallible judgments rather than Christ's. There is no document on earth that I could trust if it was as full of error as is your Bible. I have not tried to measure it, but your rejection of most of the Old Testament, anything which speaks of judgement in the NT, the writings of Paul and the Revelation, must bring the percentage down to about 20% at most. If I asked you to risk your life on a document that was 80% inaccurate or unreliable where would you stand?

If you reject Christ's witness, through the outbreathed words of God as contained in the scripture, you are perishing and this is not the first time I have tried to warn you of your perilous position. Contrary to your own stated position the testimony of scripture still stands...“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is. 8:20, KJVS)Your 'light', bubbaguy, is 'darkness'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/20 18:55Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2741
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Yet, it is full of Truths and provides the basis for understanding and accepting salvation from sin through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus.



If you believe that you are saved through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus then can I assume that you take the four gospels to be good history? What I mean by "good history" is that when you test them by the standards of historical research, do you believe they are historically reliable?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/20 19:42Profile









 Re:


The Gospels reinforce one another and yes, I believe they are historically accurate.

Bub

 2005/10/21 9:18
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I understand your fears and why you would not want to walk down the same road as Barth. However, I do not believe that because the bible was written by fallible men that it is untrustworthy. Rather, what this shows is how powerful God is to be able to use fallible men and women to deliver His message.

I must say that I do not believe the bible is the Word of God. Immediately, this probably sets you back a few steps and causes you to question me, as you have said. I understand your fear especially since you are established in your belief that the bible is the Word of God. Please open your heart and listen to what I have to say first. Take my words to Christ and pray over them. May He speak to your heart.

My intention is not to make the bible incredible, but to make Christ greater. As I have said many times, I love the bible. I do not think it is incredible or unreliable. I believe that Christ is supreme.

John 1:1-14 (KJ)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended F1 it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Some points I would like to highlight: "the Word was God" and "And the Word was made flesh".

I do not think I need to argue that these scriptures are referring to Jesus Christ who is God and God's Word. It does not come out and say, "Jesus is God." However, "the Word was God" and "the Word was made flesh."

When you say the bible is God's Word, then according to this scripture you saying that the bible is God. Do you believe that the bible is God?

In addition to this, when you say the bible is God's Word, then what you are saying is that it is the words of God. The bible was written by men. They are the words of men. And so, when you say the bible is God's Word, then you are saying the men who wrote the bible are God. Do you believe Paul and John are God?

I am sure you believe Jesus is God. There is a statement above that makes clear what the bible is. John says, "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light."

The bible bears witness to Jesus Christ. There is a significant difference between saying this and the bible is God's Word. The bible is just a witness. It is a message carried by messengers. The message comes from God. However, the messengers are God's people.

The bible is a revelation. A revelation reveals. The bible reveals God's Word. However, the bible is not God's Word.

The bible is the words of the writers. For example, the bible is the words of Paul. He spoke under influence of the Holy Spirit. He was a witness to Jesus. He was not Jesus.

You are also a messenger of Christ. I have heard God speak through you to me on occasion. Your words were inspired by God as He revealed them to you. Does this make you God? Does this mean I can't believe your words because you are fallible?

I do admit that I don't trust anyone easily. However, your words were revealed true to me not because they came from you, but because Jesus in me affirmed your words in me.

This may be complicated to grasp. I am not saying the bible, or you, become God's Word at any time. I am not saying the bible or you ever become God. Rather, what I am saying is that God who is in me takes the message from the bible and confirms it in me.

You must understand, the same Holy Spirit that filled the writers of the bible, like Paul, is the same Holy Spirit inside of you and me. The Holy Spirit is the same, but our experiences of it are different. The Holy Spirit reveals the same truth, (Jesus is the truth). However, our interpretation of the truth is different. We all serve the same God, but we each worship Him in different ways.

When you say the bible has authority, you are elevating to the level of God, and you are also saying that there are more than one God. There is only one God, one authority, ruling over all. If you say the bible has authority, then the bible is God. If the bible is not God, then you are saying there is one God, the bible, and then another God, Jesus. This is not true.

You once said that the testimony of Paul and the apostles is greater than mine or yours. This cannot be true because you are saying there are two Holy Spirits and two Christs. Paul and the apostles have one Christ who is greater than the Christ we have.

There is one Christ, who lives in all Christians. The Christ in Paul and John is not greater than the Christ in your or me. It is the same Christ.

Let me also address the scriptures you quoted:

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13, KJVS)

“If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:35, KJVS)

In both these scriptures, Jesus is referencing the law. And at that time, the law could not be broken. Jesus had not died to set us free from our sins. The law still had power and authority.

Before Christ died, the law was the word of God. Men did not write the law. God wrote the law on two tablets with His own fingers. God wrote the law. The law was so Holy, it was preserved in the ark in the center of the temple. The law was final and it had authority. The law is the basis for which all things will be judged. The scripture, the law, the word of God cannot be broken.

However, Jesus gave His life so that we may be set free from the law through His death. This is the message you preached to me.

Therefore, we have been set free from the law as an authority, so that we can obey it in truth. Before we died with Christ, the law had authority over us. We were condemned by it. However, when Christ set us free, the law no longer had authority over us. Rather, we have submitted ourselves unto the authority of Christ.

The bible has no authority over us. Rather, Christ has authority over us. This was done so that we could live up to the law in truth. The law is based upon love. However, love is a choice. The problem with the law is that it removes our choice. The law says. “You must do this or else you will die.” How can anyone show love if it is forced?

Rather, now that we are free from the law, we can obey it in love. We can choose to believe in God’s Word. We can choose Christ. We can choose to live up to the law.

By giving the bible authority, you are removing all of what Christ has done for us. You are saying, “The bible is God’s Word, it has authority greater than you, and it is what you must follow and do.” When people follow the law or abide by the bible because of the bible’s authority, then they are not doing it out of love. They are doing it because they must, because they have to. Rather, we should be filled with love and choose to do God’s will by choice.

There is only one authority. He is Jesus Christ. We should follow Him. If we truly follow Christ, then we will also accept the bible in love. We know that the bible is inspired by God. It is one tool of many that Christ uses to spread His message. The bible is not the truth, it bears witness to the truth. By this, the bible can be used for teaching and instructing. If the bible were the truth, it could be used to command and force. However, the bible cannot force anything on anyone. The bible has no authority and exhibits no power apart from Christ.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJ)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Quote:
What we have then is a highly dubious testimony of a fallible eyewitnesses and we are dependent upon the person who bears the witness



We are NOT dependent upon the person who bears the witness. If that were true, then our faith would be based on the bible or another person. Our faith is based on Christ. We are dependent on Christ to give us our own testimony. We are not dependent on the person who bears the witness for each Christian bears Christ. We each have our own witness. Do you not have a testimony of Christ?

Each of our testimonies is valid for Christ gave them to us. Each of us bears witness to the light. Whether we like it or not, our life is a testimony of Christ. We, as Christians, carry the name of Christ. Everything we do speaks to others about Christ (bears witness). (All the more reason to live Holy lives.)

We are dependent on each other to complete the body of Christ. Each of us holds valuable gifts and knowledge that when combined we form the body of Christ. In this, it is important that we love each other and encourage each other in faith.

Jesus is a personal God. He wants an intimate relationship with each of us. He wants to love us, not from a distance, but right where we are. Why would He put the bible in the middle of that relationship? The bible, I believe, is a gift from God. He gave it to help us, not control us.

I hope this helps you to better understand what I have been saying.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/21 9:48Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I wanted to comment on this quote, even though it wasn't directed to me. I hope you don't mind.

Quote:
But how can you believe it when it teaches such things, knowing that it has been recorded and passed down through generations by fallible man?



How do you know you are saved? Do you base your salvation on the bible?

I know I am saved because Jesus confirms it in me. He is in me.

I can read the bible and discern truth because of Jesus in me. I can listen to a sermon and discern truth from it because of Jesus in me. I can read your responses and know what is truth, because of Jesus in me.

Sometimes, I do admit that I am hard at hearing. Sometimes, I am stubborn and I stumble. However, Christ the good shepard always leads me back. If there is something important that I need to hear, He will make sure that I hear it.

That's the whole point. I am an infallible man who bears sin and error, and yet within me is Jesus Christ. Inside of me, a lowly and unworthy being is Jesus Christ, the Holy and most High God.

Through Paul, a murderer of God's own people, God chose to deliver His infallible and perfect message.

Quote:
If you reject Christ's witness, through the outbreathed words of God as contained in the scripture, you are perishing and this is not the first time I have tried to warn you of your perilous position.



God's Word, His message, is Jesus Christ.

Those who accept Jesus goto Heaven. Those who reject Jesus goto Hell.

The bible is NOT Jesus.

There are many, many religions out there that accept the bible. Are they all going to Heaven? There are many, many Christians out there that reject the bible. Are they all going to Hell? Can the bible save a person?

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Are we not?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/21 10:13Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I am nothing and certainly the least of everyone. And it is known on this board that I have erred. But, I make a plea with you in love as your brother to think about your words carefully. Are these words of encouragement?

Quote:
Your 'light', bubbaguy, is 'darkness'.



Matthew 7: 1-5 (KJ)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/21 10:22Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am nothing and certainly the least of everyone. And it is known on this board that I have erred. But, I make a plea with you in love as your brother to think about your words carefully. Are these words of encouragement?

It is no kindness if you see a man with his coat on fire to pat him on the back and wish him good morning.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 11:35Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Dear Ron,

I know exactly where Blake is coming from, because the Bible was virtually meaningless to me until the Holy Spirit began to enlighten my hearing and interpret it to my spirit and mind.

ALL of us need to have our minds renewed by the Spirit. We are ALL moving towards having 'the mind of Christ' but God begins His work in each of us at the point most needful, because He knows the BEST order in which to bring us round more and more to His way of thinking. He SEES the keystones which must be pulled, so that our false ideals and ideologies will crumble most efficiently, allowing [i]Him[/i] to build us up in the most holy faith.

In saying this, I am fully accepting of the authority of scripture, to those who have scripture in their hands, but, I am concerned at the emphasis you put on it, seeing not only was Paul not with the twelve, (although he knew the Old Testament writings very well) but, there are literally thousands of Christians who have chosen to die for Christ's Name, who have never held a Bible in their hands. They do so even today, such is the power of the manifestation of His Spirit and presence in their life. NO-ONE dies for an ideal which has never got below their neck. But, they would die for the Life which has come to them through repentance and faith and taken away all their sins, bringing them into fellowship with the Father.

All true Christians who know the Lord, have to bring the witness of the Spirit to bear OVER AND ABOVE what their mind tells them. This is how the mind is renewed (partly). And while I agree it is possible (know people who do) subject the truth of scripture to their fallen mind, and thereby reject it, not one of us can claim (nor would it be scriptural to do so) that from the moment of conversion, we have the full mind of Christ. But what we DO have, is a burning witness of His presence that changes us and how we deal with familiar situations which used to cause us to sin, fall, or fail. Other people notice this. We know we have been changed - [u]by the relationship with God Himself[/u].

Making this claim is not anti-scripturist. It is the only explanation for the meaning in the New Covenant promise - which I know you know.

saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall [u]know[/u] [b]me[/b], from the least to the greatest. (Hebrews 8 KJV)

If I could give an example here from my own experience. Please respect the fact I don't share this often and probably won't post about it again - but it came to me today as the only legitimate example I have, which closely mirrors the issue we are discussing.

When I was three, I was given a beautiful book with Bible stories and gorgeous pictures. It was big, and we had to sit at a table to look at it. I remember the angels standing round the garden of Eden and the fiery sword turning in all directions to guard the way to the tree of life. Did this mean anything to me? Well, God thought it meant enough, for, the day after an extremely traumatic experience, He sent an angel to show His interest in me. There are two ways I knew what I was seeing was an angel. Firstly, he looked like one of the angels in the picture. Secondly, I was terrified - just like the shepherds in the field.

Years later, when i recalled this (or the Lord brought it back to my mind), I realised I could hardly remember the picture in the book, but I can STILL remember the fear, and hiding, and my disappointment mixed with relief that when I took courage to look again, he had gone. My point is this: I remember the transluscent being whom I saw, as if it happened yesterday. I have never sought to see him again, but I am completely convinced I saw him then. I don't worship him. I worship God - the God who makes Himself [i]known[/i] to me outside the page.

Please, let me reiterate, I am not suggesting anyone who owns a Bible stops reading it, or stops asking the Lord to make it make sense, but, this portion of the day when one reads the written word, forms a minority of the average Christian's life and the rest of the time, they are not [u]being[/u] a Christian because of what they can remember, but rather, because of the assistance of the Holy Ghost, and their fellowship with the Father and with the Son.

 2005/10/21 11:36
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2741
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
The Gospels reinforce one another and yes, I believe they are historically accurate.



Now, if those are good history, if that really happened–if Jesus did give these teachings that many think are the greatest moral teachings the world's ever seen, if He taught powerfully and with great insight into the spiritual realm and then punctuated His claims with miracles and the capping miracle of all, the resurrection–if that really did happen, if the historical evidence seems to be compelling, well then, it strikes me that this man's opinion about the source of the Old Testament matters.

Jesus put His stamp of approval on and quoted from every section of the Old Testament. He would say, "God said" or "Scripture says" or "Moses said" or whatever writer. But clearly when you examine those words, in His mind those terms are interchangeable. He quoted from them as if they were authoritative, from God Himself.

If Jesus gave His imprimatur to the Hebrew Bible, and if Jesus is someone whose word we might be able to trust, then that gives us good reason to trust the authority of the Hebrew Bible in all it says.

Now, this may raise other questions, like what about the apparent contradictions? But you see, now I go to the Bible with good reason to believe it is not merely a book written by men about God and therefore would be subject to all of man's errors. I approach it as a book given by God to men about Himself, even though men were involved in writing it down.

If the Bible is the word of God, and God can't err, then His word can't err. If I have good reason to believe that this is a fair way of looking at it, then when I come to a possible apparent contradiction, since my evidence is on the side of being authoritative, what I'm going to look for is a way to resolve the contradiction.

I'm not going to camp on one apparent problem and use that to disqualify all the rest. Because if one apparent problem disqualifies the Bible as the word of God, then Jesus was wrong about His source of authority–the Scriptures–as coming from God.

But Jesus was the one who worked the miracles, who rose from the dead, etc. And I think it's less likely that Jesus was mistaken than that I'm mistaken. I'm probably the one who's misreading.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/21 11:52Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I do admit that I don't trust anyone easily. However, your words were revealed true to me not because they came from you, but because Jesus in me affirmed your words in me.

Don't believe a word I say... unless it is in absolute agreement with the revelation of God in the scriptures.

Quote:
Before Christ died, the law was the word of God.

According to the reasoning of your post this would make 'the law - God'. You are right to say that the bible 'has no authority over us', but the bible is the revealed will and word of He who does have authority over us. This argument is as if you were saying I will disobey the law of the US because my loyalty is to the US and not to the law. I am not pleading for a 'law keeping' evangelicalism but your reasoning is the consequence of the first error in which your ultimate authority is not what Jesus Christ has said but what you think you hear him saying now. This has led you to the creation of your website; your perception of what Christ is saying now. I say that if what you are hearing is different to what Christ has already said, the voice you are hearing is not that of Christ. This is the warning I share with bubbaguy too.

Which Christ are you talking about? There are many who claim to be Christ. I say that the scriptures will bear witness to the authentic Christ, and if your Christ speaks not according to their testimony, he is not Christ but a counterfeit.

Quote:
You once said that the testimony of Paul and the apostles is greater than mine or yours. This cannot be true because you are saying there are two Holy Spirits and two Christs. Paul and the apostles have one Christ who is greater than the Christ we have.

Not at all. We are not questioning salvation but the recognition of God's voice. If you put your revelation on the same level as that of Paul and the Apostles you have no points of reference other than your own convictions. Have you ever been wrong in your inner witness convictions? or do you experience 100% infallibility in this area? It is quite plain from the verses shared that Christ equated the scriptures with the word of God. “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:35, KJVS) The point I am making here does not relate to the law at all, but simply that Christ believed in the inerrancy of the Scripture. Even Bubbaguy admits that, but he believes Christ was fallible in his earthly experience believing the fantasies of his day eg Jonah and the great fish.

Where do you stand with this? Was Christ fallible and therefore capable of error? If so was heaven and hell another accommodation to his day and age? If He was wrong on these issues how can we be sure that he was right on others?

Paul claims that all scripture is god-breathed. Would he say the same of your website? If not, there is a qualitative difference between the inspiration of scripture and your 'inner witness'. If Paul was wrong here how do we know he was right elsewhere? Most of the teaching of the New Testament on the saving consequence of Christ's death comes from Paul; what if he was mistaken? Peter says that Paul's writings were scripture...“as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” (2Pet. 3:16, NKJV)...is your website 'scripture'? If not there is a qualitative difference between your inspiration and that of Paul. You are heading in the direction of those like some early Quakers and more recent Mormon's who claimed that they could 'make scripture as well as' Paul. Why not? if there is no qualitative difference between their experience of the Spirit's inspiration and that of the Apostles.

There is an article on [url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-156.HTM]the Inspiration of Scripture[/url] by John MacArthur that I would encourage you to read. It will present these same arguments but in a structured manner not possible in these threads.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 13:27Profile





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