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LetUsPray
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 Re: Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Philologos, or dear Brother Ron,

You wrote regarding the promise and the mission of the Holy Spirit in John 16:13:

Quote:
Their words would be inspired by the fulfillment of the earlier promise. This is the foundation of a conservative evangelical's understanding of 'verbal inspiration' of scripture. It is because of this promise to the apostles that the New Testament has final authority for the Bible believing Christian. The verse you quote is not a promise that the church, down the centuries, will have continuing revelation which is to be added to the biblical revelation, and it is not a personal promise of infallibility for every believer. It is a promise of infallibility for the apostles' doctrinal statements.


I realize Ron that we will not agree. You talk about Jake-ism. Again, you are more educated than I am, for I don’t have any idea what this is.

The cause of the disunity of the Church is the matter of the various doctrines and interpretations of certain promises by Jesus, teachings of Paul, and their applications in the Church today. If Jesus asked the Father for UNITY: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me (John 17:23), we, as the Body of Christ, have failed. At least, that is what I believe. Since we continue to disagree about certain Scripture interpretations, we will continue to disagree about the witness of -, and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers,

Today, a number of well-meaning Christians attempt to get together to pray for revival. The truth is that if these Christians come from various denominational backgrounds, they are NOT one with the Father and Jesus, because they believe different truths about God, and in reality are thereby creating their own gods. There is only ONE God the Father, One Jesus Christ, and One Holy Spirit manifested in the seven Spirits of God. Unless the Spirit of Christ dwells within us and actually leads us into all truth, we will have great difficulty “discerning” truth, and/or, “SEE” THE NEED TO DO SO.

For me personally, Christ dwells in my heart and He warns me, for when I am in a meeting of Christians who all pray in tongues and are totally convicted of the fact that they praying “in the Spirit,” I become sometimes so offended in my spirit that I have to leave.

I am assuming here, and I know that is dangerous, but I believe that you will agree with me that when Paul wrote:

1 Corintians 12
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

that not everyone would speak in tongues, that the gift of healing is not given to ALL believers, etc. In view of the fact that most believers have NOT received the gift of healing which is quite evident in the Body, why do some insist that ALL should speak in tongues? It is very easy to observe (I purposely don’t use the word “discern”) that not every “Spirit-filled” believer has the gift of healing, but how do we observe that not all tongues are real? Now we need “discernment,” for we cannot observe a spiritual gift that has no physical demonstration of “result” if you wish, except for the audibility of the “unknown” language. The only way we can “humanly understand” if a gift of tongues is of God, is by “spiritual discernment,” or the witness of the Holy Spirit, Christ in us.

How do we know that Christ is in us, the hope of glory? There is really only one way. It is the demonstration of the witness of the Spirit of His Son, or the Spirit of adoption, by which we cry out: Abba! Father! Only, and only, if we have to cry out to our heavenly Father, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do we have the actual witness in our spirit that we have received the Spirit of Adoption – the spiritual contract of adoption – and that Christ lives in us by faith. If we have no difficulty asking Jesus, or for that matter the Holy Spirit, we don’t worship God under “the spiritual contract of adoption,” i.e., being led by the Spirit of Christ in us, Who always cried out to His Father, never to Himself.

This then will make us vulnerable to the schemes of the devil, since we don’t obey God’s plan, but our interpretations thereof. There is only ONE WAY to understand the schemes of the devil, and that is through total submission and obedience to God’s Word. Just remember how Satan could challenge Jesus when he said: And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish (Luke 4:6).

Who had given it to him? Adam and Eve for they had been given dominion over the whole earth: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Gen.1:26).
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God only ONE time, Satan obtained dominion over the earth. Do we really believe that we can disobey God and NOT give Satan a foothold in our lives, let alone deceive us? I don’t think that learning about the schemes of the devil is honoring the devil, rather it equips the believers to “stand firm.”

I am sorry Ron that we don’t see eye to eye on the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers in this great day of deception. I only hope that you will no longer equate my experience with God with psychology, for that is very painful to me. I love God and have made a commitment to serve Him, and He can do with me what He wants, as long as He gets the glory. I serve God and not men, therefore comparing the things I share to psychology are painful to me.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/15 11:33Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Dear Hans

Quote:
am sorry Ron that we don’t see eye to eye on the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers in this great day of deception. I only hope that you will no longer equate my experience with God with psychology, for that is very painful to me. I love God and have made a commitment to serve Him, and He can do with me what He wants, as long as He gets the glory. I serve God and not men, therefore comparing the things I share to psychology are painful to me.


I am sorry if I have offended you in what I have said, but I am not 'equating your experience' with psychology, I am questioning your explanation of the experience. The phrase 'deep pyschological wound' was yours not mine. The terminology that you have used to describe your experience is not biblical terminology, so I constantly have to ask what do you mean. I am deeply suspicious of spiritual experience which cannot be described biblically. It almost inevitably leads to 'extra-biblical' theology.

Again, I am genuinely sorry if my questions have offended you, but I am not 'repentent' in that if we started the thread all over again I would still have to ask the same questions.

My reference to Jake-ism is a SI in-house comment/joke. We have a regular contributor on SI who was originally known as Jake but now as Bubbaguy. He is a Bible-believer where it fits his thinking but adds a whole bundle of other things which he believes just as passionately; these include reincarnation and the notion that Adam's original sin was becoming a non-vegetarian. His justification for this 'extra-biblical' belief is that he has an inner witness that it is so. Once the inner witness begins to add 'revelation' to the scripture revelation we are adrift in a boat without oars and at the mercy of any passing current. Jake rejects whole sections of the scripture because they do not fit into his personal theology. It is a man made mix created by leaving out divine relevation and adding in human revelation. That was my reference to "Jake-ism'; it isn't a denomination just a personal delusion.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/17 10:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But I am also aware that you are trying to move this discussion into your comfort zone - the written word. Whereas the testimony of Jesus Christ (the living Word) as it has been experienced by an individual believer (in this case, me), is as valid; the word is nigh me, even in my mouth.

You are mistaken. I am not trying to move the discussion into my 'comfort zone'. I have no ultimate terms of reference for my understanding of spiritual fact other than a divine and infallible revelation which i find in the scripture. If your 'experience of Jesus Christ' is [u]as valid as [/u] the written word, it is little wonder that we are in fundamental disagreement. This is exactly Jake/bubbaguys position.

I can't think how I would have connected 'anointing' to 'calling'. I see them as very different concepts so I can't add much to this.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/17 10:27Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

I have not been following this thread through entirely, so I could be missing some things. I am not really seeking to debate or disagree with you, but better understand where you are coming from.

Quote:
I have no ultimate terms of reference for my understanding of spiritual fact other than a divine and infallible revelation which i find in the scripture.



What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that the whole of your understanding of Christ and the Spirit comes from the bible only?

In love,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/17 11:33Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Hi Ron,

I believe I said 'the' testimony and 'the' word.

What I've experienced of 'healing' - to use the term specifically to mean restoration towards normal health - can all be found in scripture, without any loss of doctrinal integrity.

I had intended to lay it all out in one post, but that seems rather unweildy now I've thought through from start to finish, so I'd like to begin with a question, which picks up from one of your earlier posts.

Quote:
I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God.

Your statement depends on an evil entity being in the same 'location' as the spirit of the person (I believe) - that is, where the Holy Spirit would also reside following regeneration.

My understanding from other discussions is that regeneration is a spiritual event which does not alter the flesh except by freeing it from bondage to the principle of sin.

Please could you show [u]from scripture[/u] how an evil spirit could not be in the flesh of a person who has received the Holy Spirit?

 2005/10/17 15:56
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that the whole of your understanding of Christ and the Spirit comes from the bible only?


I am saying in the words of Luther 'that my conscience is subject to the word of God' and so is my understanding. “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2Tim. 3:15-17, KJVS) The scriptures are able to make me wise to the salvation that is in Christ, by faith, and to completely equip me for the work of God.

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Whereas the testimony of Jesus Christ (the living Word) as it has been experienced by an individual believer (in this case, me), is as valid; the word is nigh me, even in my mouth.

What you said is that "the testimony of Jesus Christ" as perceived subjectively "is as valid as" the 'written testimon'y where we find the truth 'objectively'. There are others who use this site who believe as you do, but I am not one of them.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/17 16:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Please could you show from scripture how an evil spirit could not be in the flesh of a person who has received the Holy Spirit?

Please show me from scripture that this ever happened in the record of God's dealings with men. There are many things I can't prove from the scripture. I can't prove from the scripture that there is no one living on the moon.

the bible promise is that 'you' will be filled with the Holy Spirit, and it states that 'your body' is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Paul bids me present my body a living sacrifice, holy...


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/17 16:03Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?


Hi Ron,

There must be a point at which one loses objectivity in order to believe. In the end, there is no denying that having the witness in oneself is a subjective experience.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:

So on what basis do you judge that another person's claim to 'have the witness in himself', is as valid as yours to have the witness in yourself?

 2005/10/17 17:52









 Re:

philologos said

Quote:
Please show me from scripture that this ever happened in the record of God's dealings with men.

This is an impasse, because you can't show that it didn't. If demons were always cast out before a person could receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture doesn't actually say that.

I'd be interested to know what is the scriptural basis for [i]not[/i] praying with all-comers for deliverance or healing if they need it, [i]before[/i] they receive the Holy Spirit. Is there one?

 2005/10/17 18:09
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
i've followed this discussion and found it to be most interesting. i feel led of the Lord to say something. in our reading of scripture, how much to we rely on Holy Spirit for interpretation? let us all go before God and ask that He show us this. i had a revelation from the Lord some time ago about scripture. it is brethed of God's Spirit and requires God's Spirit to interpret it and minister to us. in addition there is much more to scripture than what is on the surface, there are things between the written lines (for lack of a better expression) or deeper things in scripture which at first glance may appear to be non-biblical. Perhaps we should always be aware that there are things in scripture that the Lord hasn't revealed to us yet? this is not to say that everything "non-biblical" is of God but rather that what the Lord has revealed to bro X may not be known to bro Y, in short none of us know it all as it pertains to scripture.

also i shared with another brother this same revelation and his response was interesting, surface reading of scripture produces superficial Christians/hypocrites. it's no wonder (for me anyway) that the church is as it is...perhaps we read too much on the surface and don't seek the deeper things of God?

bro hans i can bear witness to much of your testimony, it seems that the Lord has made it such that we have more in common than i thought.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/10/17 19:26Profile





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