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LetUsPray
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 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But.....?

Dear Brothers Ron,

Quote:
What, using biblical terms, would be your definition of 'psychological injury'?


First brother Ron,

I knew you would come back with that word. Any person – even those who are Christians – as a rule form judgments when serious wrongs are inflicted. Most Christians today, don’t display the Praising the Lord that our brothers in the book of Acts displayed when they were beaten and imprisoned. Real Christians deal with that quickly, and if you are really walking with the Lord you will pray a great hurt through and forgive whoever has hurt you very quickly. The only way to overcome real abuse is immediate forgiveness of the offender and praising God, for the Joy of the Lord is your strength.

Why, and I repeat this, why little children are not “delivered” entirely, and have not become total new creations when they initially are saved at a later point in their lives, I don’t know. I have even a bigger question, why is it that these “new creations” still sin at all? If you don’t sin anymore, Praise the Lord. I haven’t arrived yet. And, to date, having been a Christian – I know that I am a Christian – for 23 years, haven’t met one single other Christian who can declare that they live a sinless life.
Quote:
I'm curious, was this under some Theophostic Ministry? What you are describing sounds alot like what I have read from that type of ministry. For example they might say... "If I try to resolve my present conflict without finding healing for my past wounds (memories with embedded lies), I will only find temporary relief. However, if I heal my past, I will redeem my present." My question to that notion would be, are we trying to heal our past or are we trusting that God has made us a new creation ala 2 Corinthians 5:17.


Second brother Ron,

I had to go on Google to find out what you were referring to. No it was certainly NOT Theophosy. I had never heard of that before. I thought that I was clear that I did not go back to the past on purpose. I hadn’t even raised the occasional bout of rage where I actually lost control. My children had grown up and the grand-children hadn’t been born yet. This problem wasn’t even on my mind. The easiest way to describe this ministry is that it was a charismatic form of the Neil Anderson steps to Freedom. I don’t even know if it still exists. They insisted that every one who wanted to follow the course had to go through a mandatory prayer counseling session. This basically meant that you had to confess all your sins in front of other Christians. The premise being that, if one had unconfessed sin in their life, they could not be a good counselor, which in itself I didn’t object to. When we came to forgive all people that we could remember had ever hurt us – I had done this already, but since I was new to them they didn’t accept that – I went through the list of people I remembered. It was at this point that I declared publicly that I forgave a certain individual in the name of Jesus, asked God to forgive me also, that within a second I was at that point in time when this incident took place. I had no recollection and we hadn’t arrived at the mentioning of the anger issue. As I said in an earlier post, I had no recollection of this incident, the people that were with me certainly didn’t “lead me” on some type of regression trip. None of that. The only explanation I have is that I had asked the Lord many times for healing, deliverance, or what ever type of label you want to put in this, for this problem. I had even renounced and rebuked it in the name of Jesus. It never left until this day.

Brothers, I am willing to take this further under one condition. Are you willing to explore this, or do you want to disprove me. I will continue if you are willing to open yourself up to the possibility that not all spiritual matters are cut and dry, and that we may still be able to learn. In the latter case, I prefer not to continue this. In both cases I pray that God will bless you both and I thank you and Him for having given me the opportunity to testify on this Forum that He is the great I AM.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/13 15:51Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
Brothers, I am willing to take this further under one condition. Are you willing to explore this, or do you want to disprove me. I will continue if you are willing to open yourself up to the possibility that not all spiritual matters are cut and dry, and that we may still be able to learn.


letuspray
Please don't misunderstand me if I say that my interest in this thread is not so much your experience as the theology behind it. You didn't, so far as I can see, give me my biblical explanation of 'deep psychological wounds'. You see I don't really know what you mean by 'psyche'. I know it is the Greek word for soul, but the psychologist actually uses it to refer to processes of the mind. I can't map the word 'psychological' to any biblical concept.

Suppose I were to invent a word and say 'I have experienced a deep wound in my schlumpf'. You would have no idea what I was talking about, because I have made up the word 'schlumpf'. In a Christian context the word 'psychological' is the same. The psychologist has created his own view of the way the human beings are made, and has given labels, ego, id, consciousness, subconscious, etc. These are man made labels and I cannot verify them from scripture. It becomes even more complicated when Christians take over these man-made labels and begin to interpret their experiences using them. From a biblical perspective I have no idea what this word 'psychological' means. Please give me a biblical version of what you are testifying to. Biblically this 'deep wound' might be in the body, the soul or the spirit, but I don't know of any biblical precedent for this kind of experience. We run the risk of adding a whole 'canon' of langauge and experience to the Bible revelation.

For myself, I really try hard to express my experience in Biblical forms, not because I believe it is more spiritual but simply with the hope that their will be a greater consensus with a Bible word than with a non-bible word.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/13 18:15Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But.....?

Dear Ron,

Dear Ron,

I looked up the meaning of the two “words” in the Thesaurus and this is what it said:

Psychology - the scientific study of the human mind and mental states, and of human and animal behavior.

Psychiatry - a medical specialty concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of disorders that have primarily mental or behavioral symptoms and with the care of people having such disorders.

There is no question that this word is not found in the Bible, because there didn’t have this profession. Jesus wasn’t a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but this is what He “knew:”

Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart [kardia], took a child, and set him by him,

Heart in this Scripture is the Greek word kardia. This may be understood to mean:

1. that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life, or
2. the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

This makes it clearer, for Jesus perceived the thought of their soul or mind, i.e., He didn’t have to study their mind or mental state, He saw it. As I have stated in previous posts, I don’t involve myself with psychology, I trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

John 2
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

This Scripture makes it even clearer: Jesus knew what was in man, i.e., He perceived the true state of their purpose, objectives, reasoning, etc. This is what I believe the key is to all of this. This is why I believe that many of us miss a lot of what the Lord really has given us: Christ in us the hope of glory! What does that mean: Christ in you? Why did Paul labor to see Christ formed in believers? I have posted several times references to the prayers of Paul in his letter to the Ephesian Church. In Ephesian 1:18 he asks God the Father to have the eyes of their heart [kardia] NASB Greek, or the eyes of their understanding [dianoia, mind as faculty of understanding] AV Greek to be “enlightened” i.e., spiritually illuminated; in Ephesians 3:16,17 Paul writes this: That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts [kardia, AV and NASB Greek] by faith.

What do you think happens, if Christ really lives in your heart, the seat of thoughts, emotions, and passions? He still knows what is in man, also the man/woman you are talking to, praying about, or even sitting with. What did Jesus mean when He said:

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If Jesus really lives in your heart by His Spirit and you ask the Father in Jesus name, He will show you in your “heart” what it is you ask for. He takes from Jesus and leads you into all truth! If your doctrine declares that the gifts of the Spirit died with the apostles, you have a serious problem, for you hereby deny the full counsel of God with ALL His promises. Of course that is one’s choice; we are free agents, but it is certainly sad for the people who look for the One who came to set the captives free. If Christ would really live in the hearts of all Christians, we also wouldn’t see the excesses in Charismatic circles, for they too would hear the voice of His Spirit in their hearts warning them about false manifestations. If we don’t obey everything that Jesus taught us, we will be deceived, and we are deceived.

To clarify another point: all the above does not mean that a Christian, who is a psychologist, cannot have the same guidance, for the Holy Spirit guides us into ALL truth. Many today, who feel called into the ministry, simply cannot get a position anywhere unless they have degrees. As soon as one has to go to some Bible College or Christian University to get a “degree” to preach the Good News, one has to agree with some “doctrinal” point of view. This is an aside, but I want to point out that a true Christian, who knows the voice of God, may certainly be used by God to heal through the leading of the Holy Spirit, even when they have a psychology degree. If churches and boards didn’t require “degrees,” maybe our Lord would be able to better serve the flock by a man who simply trusted God, rather than being bound by needed “degrees,” with the possibility of being led astray by having to follow flawed doctrines.

If you are with me on this, I may clarify some of the above with actual examples in another post.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/13 20:31Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
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 Re:

Quote:
Brothers, I am willing to take this further under one condition. Are you willing to explore this, or do you want to disprove me. I will continue if you are willing to open yourself up to the possibility that not all spiritual matters are cut and dry, and that we may still be able to learn. In the latter case, I prefer not to continue this. In both cases I pray that God will bless you both and I thank you and Him for having given me the opportunity to testify on this Forum that He is the great I AM.



I am willing to learn and be corrected, if you prove me wrong in some point then you are my friend. At this point I have a hard time lining up the description of your experience with Scripture. This is not to discount your experience but, as Ron said, the theology behind it seems to be lacking.

However, I say that with fear and trembling because I know that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar basically said the same thing to Job and we all know how that book ended. I tremble to think that I might misrepresent God as they did, stubbornly holding on to some creed. Can you imagine hearing this from the Lord...And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7)

I hope we can all simply be willing to learn from each other with humility and esteem and earnestly seek God for the truth.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/10/13 21:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

letuspray

Quote:
If your doctrine declares that the gifts of the Spirit died with the apostles, you have a serious problem, for you hereby deny the full counsel of God with ALL His promises.

I don't, so we can eliminate that from the discussion. I am not questioning the current availability of gifts of discernment, but what I am saying is that those gifts must be subject to the revelation of scripture. These residual memories or 'deep psychological wounds' just do not fit in to anything that God has revealed to us in the scripture. I can find no trace, in the scripture, of anything even vaguely resembling 'the healing of the memory' which is underlying your posts.

I have no problems with 'heart', 'mind', 'soul', 'understanding'; these are all biblical terms. But I still don't know which 'part' of a human being bears the 'deep psychological wound'.

Quote:
To clarify another point: all the above does not mean that a Christian, who is a psychologist, cannot have the same guidance, for the Holy Spirit guides us into ALL truth.

Now this is where the danger really lies. You are quoting “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13, KJVS) This is part of a unique promise given to the apostles. It is this promise which lies behind Christ's prayer:“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:20, KJVS) Their words would be inspired by the fulfillment of the earlier promise. This is the foundation of a conservative evangelical's understanding of 'verbal inspiration' of scripture. It is because of this promise to the apostles that the New Testament has final authority for the Bible believing Christian. The verse you quote is not a promise that the church, down the centuries, will have continuing revelation which is to be added to the biblical revelation, and it is not a personal promise of infallibility for every believer. It is a promise of infallibility for the apostles' doctrinal statements.

Modern medical opinion is not part of the fulfillment of this promise, not even when the modern medic is a Christian. In many ways spiritual discernment is an aspect of the prophetic; they are 'revelations' of the presence of evil spirits, of a specific word 'of knowledge' or 'of wisdom'. But all such 'revelations' must be scrupulously examined in the light of the definitive revelation of scripture. The naming of 'spirits' with the labels for sins, such as 'spirit of rage', 'spirit of adultery' is 'extra-biblical' revelation and I cannot receive it. 'Sins' in the scripture implies personal accountability. If I hear prophetic utterances with an eschatological content, I subject them to the revelation of the scripture. I do the same with the claims of those who see psychologic trauma as the root of sins.

My simple question to the theology you are embracing is 'where does the Bible say that?'


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/14 4:01Profile
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Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But.....?

Brothers in the Lord,

When I wrote the comment about the acceptance of spiritual gifts, it was meant generic, not directed at “you;” the use of the word “one” would have been better and more appropriate.

I appreciate your comments and questions; at the same I have to confess that sometimes I become weary having attempted to explain supernatural/spiritual phenomena, and being questioned for over 20 years. That is the reason that I asked if you were really interested, since I have had enough very clever and very educated Christians “prove” me theologically incorrect. It is impossible to “prove” God, or the actual “schemes” of the devil. Yet, it is clear to each true born-again Christian that God is real, for there is the witness to one’s spirit. For the same reason does every real practitioner of the occult know that the powers they call on are real as well. What is extremely disturbing to me is that the schemes of the devil are manifested all throughout the Church of Jesus Christ – from my experience – but I cannot prove this. Again, it is a witness to one’s spirit.

I want to drop the word “psychological injury,” even though in our society almost everybody has some notion of what it means, it is not Scriptural. The next question becomes, what do we call it? I call it demonic oppression, since I have not met anyone who has been “possessed” by the devil, as in, i.e., the man with the “legion.” The largest amount of spirits in one person I have encountered was six.

Here is where we get into a touchy area. Which Christian will or can accept that a demon can have some form of control over a born-gain Christian? This is a rhetorical question, for I know the answer already: almost none. I say almost, because there are Christians who do accept this, mostly, because they themselves were “delivered” of them. This brings us back to the second page of this thread, where Philologos wrote:

Quote:
I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?


I have to confess, for me it is a dilemma too, for I have studied this subject more than most Christians I know. The Bible gives examples of for instance King Saul who was anointed and since the Spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied – demonstrating, if I may express it this way: a physical demonstration of the Spirit of God – yet, when the Spirit of the Lord left him as result of sin an evil spirit of the Lord took control, and his situation went from bad to worse.

This leaves us with only a few possibilities. The only way I can testify is through personal testimony. How did I get where I am today? What does it mean to be born again? When one is born-again, is one filled with the Holy Spirit, or, is one born OF the Spirit and given the ability to “see,” or understand the Kingdom of God? This is where I am today. I have come to a place in my walk with the Lord, where I begin to understand and see things that are very disturbing and put a lot of denominational doctrines into serious doubt (to me that is). I know that I was delivered from an evil spirit, not just one, but three over a period of four years. The last thing I do is give credit to the devil, after all Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and the Church is to carry on with that part of the mission, for it has not been completed.

Did God talk to me the first few years of my born-again state? Yes, He did. I actually started to participate in a prayer group as I have stated earlier and I very much desired to read the Bible. Prayer has been greatest desire ever since I became a Christian, hardly something encouraged by the devil. Yet, if I didn’t have anything of the Holy Spirit, what was It? Within half a year of being born-again, a Charismatic pastor prayed with me and told me that that same day or night of would have the “gift” of tongues. This was correct also. If we judge by measuring the amount of influence of the Holy Spirit vs the “rage,” the Holy Spirit was more influential, since the “rage” only occurred a few times, but my joy was great and almost continuously so. Prior to being saved, I had considered on a number of occasions to end my life. After the night that Lord put His joy in my heart, I had NO doubt about my desire to live for Him. In that respect, I certainly was a new creation in Christ and old things were gone and new things had come, but…not ALL old things had gone. The fact that I, within a month of being saved, learned that my wife was in love with another man, a “spirit-filled” Christian no less, and being able to meet him and ask him calmly “what he was thinking and how he as a Christian could justify, being married and all, using this method to lead someone to then Lord,” and already having forgiven him, was another miracle.

In the first years of my Christian walk (before I was delivered of the “rage”) I heard for the first time what I believe was the voice of God. This occurred on quite a regular basis. Within the second year, when I visited my family overseas, I was asked by a 10 year old if I knew how he/she could stop his/her uncontrollable anger. I explained that the only way this could happen was with the help of Jesus. I explained the plan of salvation to the child and we prayed a prayer of commitment and repentance. The anger did not go away. I usually would stay for a period of three weeks and we met again. I asked the Lord to show me why the anger didn’t go away and He “revealed to me” that it had to do with this child’s twin. The twin was born within minutes of this first child and was in critical condition. The twin died after a few days. What I understood from the Lord that this child had formed a strong judgment against the twin and had harbored unforgiveness which now was hidden from memory. This happened during the first days when all the attention was given to the very sick twin, and this child was plainly ignored. Please understand, I didn’t know anything about regression or whatever methods Christians and non-Christians alike, use to “heal” memories. All I know that this is what came into my mind when asked my heavenly Father why this child struggled which this enormous anger. This child was able to take a locked door right out of the wall when the anger occurred. This child also was very puzzled at what I said, but we prayed together, forgiving, asking forgiveness for the judgment, and I rebuked the “spirit of anger,” in the name of Jesus. The anger never reared its ugly head again.

I will stop here. If you want explore further, I will share more. This post is quite long.
Thank you for listening and God bless you.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/14 14:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
I have to confess, for me it is a dilemma too, for I have studied this subject more than most Christians I know. The Bible gives examples of for instance King Saul who was anointed and since the Spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied – demonstrating, if I may express it this way: a physical demonstration of the Spirit of God – yet, when the Spirit of the Lord left him as result of sin an evil spirit of the Lord took control, and his situation went from bad to worse.


This is an interesting reference but doesn't it illustrate rather that the Holy Spirit does not co-exist with 'another spirit'.

I also had a 'spirit of rage' but I got mine from Adam. :-) and I regard my moment of deliverance as my new birth.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/14 17:03Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Ron,

I do know I owe you a previous answer, but I can't go to sleep till I've asked you this. Please give a much fuller explanation, if possible, of how you can say an ordinary Spirit-filled believer is [u]not[/u] being led into all truth?

Quote:
Now this is where the danger really lies. You are quoting

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13, KJVS)

This is part of a unique promise given to the apostles.

I do see there is a need to accept the New Testament as it has so far been discovered, not continually adding to it - that it be limited to the writings of that first wave of believers, but I have [i][b]never[/b][/i] until now, heard this one verse lifted out and separated from the rest of the flow of chapter 16 as if no other Christian is to benefit from it (except as it inspires the written word).

How can you possibly justify this in the light of all that John says about truth in his first epistle and the many other reasons for believing the Father is speaking to each of His children as He did to Jesus, whose example we are exhorted to follow? He is not repeating old truth. He is [i]always[/i] speaking new and fresh 'words' into our hearts, through the Spirit.

This could not be turned into 'holy scripture', but surely it is 'truth', which requires the individual's believing and active, obedient response? This truth is not so much to do with gifts of discernment or prophecy, but a simple hearing of God's voice, taking on board what He is saying, and pouring it back out in ministry.

 2005/10/14 21:50
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This could not be turned into 'holy scripture', but surely it is 'truth',

It may be 'truth' but it is not 'all truth' and the personal 'truth' must be in line with the 'all truth' of apostolic revelation. Otherwise we are into an evangelical/charismatic version of Jake-ism.

You are, I think, confusing guidance with propositional truth. He certainly guides his children and teaches them in their walk as a Father guides his children, but that is not the same the same as entrusting the 'deposit' of truth in its fulness to every believer. The danger in the modern psychological approach increasingly used in counselling is that 'further revelation' of the nature of man and his spiritual make-up is being added to the scripture. As the courts would say, verdicts resulting from such 'evidence' are'unsafe'.

John 20:21 represents a unique giving of the Spirit which, I think, is not to be confused with new birth. Luke's description of this event is that he 'opened their minds that they might understand the scriptures'. Although every believer will have a measure of this, the apostles are part of the foundation and their role is unique. The prayer of John 17 is specifically for those apostles and 'those who would believe on their word'. The whole section of John 14-16 was delivered to the apostles. Its context is their fear which is why it begins as it does. That does not mean that God excludes others from many of its promises but we need to read it carefully if we are to avoid anarchy.

The passage you re-quoted speaks of 'all truth' and 'things to come'. The context is not personal words of assurance to future disciples, although it may accomplish this. The context is the men to whom he would entrust the word. Even to them the promise was not to them as individuals but as to the corporate apostolate. We see this in the way different elements of the 'all truth' were entrusted to Peter, John and later Paul.

One of the issues which the charismatic movement has thrown up is the whole question of 'every one taught of God' and a consequent pattern of life prompted by 'impressions'. There is safety in the multitude of counsellors and the NT verses often quoted to support the 'impressionists' are consistent with this. Paul, for example, does not say 'I have the mind of Christ' but 'we have the mind of Christ'. John does not say 'thou hast an anointing' but the plural 'ye have an anointing'. The 'counsellors' best equipped to serve us in walking his way are those who received a special dispensation of the Spirit to be the recorders of infallible and inerrant revelation. viz the New Testament.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/15 3:14Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Ron,

Thank you. I [i]am[/i] listening.

But I am also aware that you are trying to move this discussion into your comfort zone - the written word. Whereas the testimony of Jesus Christ (the living Word) as it has been experienced by an individual believer (in this case, me), is as valid; the word is nigh me, even in my mouth. This is how the gospel is spread, usually; the Holy Spirit interprets to the understanding of the hearer, who responds to God on the strength of what God has said through the person's spoken word - albeit codified in the canon of scripture. We need scripture. I love it. But it is a completely different mode of communication from preaching or prayer ministry and I know you must know that.

Probably what is necessary in this discussion is that you listen carefully to the testimony coming towards you here, and rather than asking me or Hans (or anyone else who knows what we're talking about) to rethink how they/we explain how and what God does through us, that with your knowledge of scripture, you 'see' how our descriptions fit with the testimony of scripture as to how God has used other people in the past.

I think your objection to the use of modern terminology (which communicates adequately with others working in this field of human endeavour (under God or not)) may be [b][i]more[/i][/b] valid nearer the [i]end[/i] of the conversation. As we proceed, definitions can be hammered out, just as you have to hammer them out in the mind of the listener when you're explaining a scriptural concept with which they are unfamiliar.

Quote:
The danger in the modern psychological approach increasingly used in counselling is that 'further revelation' of the nature of man and his spiritual make-up is being added to the scripture.

You may have a valid fear here, but, I resist any suggestion that what I have come to understand of man's nature, is in [u]any way incompatible[/u] with scripture as it stands. I will say more about this in future posts.

Quote:
Paul, for example, does not say 'I have the mind of Christ' but 'we have the mind of Christ'. John does not say 'thou hast an anointing' but the plural 'ye have an anointing'.

I have seen you allude to 'the anointing', in another thread, where I think you connected it to 'calling'. If I'm wrong here, please correct me, but if not, please could you say something about how this anointing - presumably the one [u]same[/u] anointing which is poured on all the individuals which make up the 'we' - is shown (in scripture) to outwork in the lives by ?calling ? gifting, of those individual believers? Thank you.

 2005/10/15 9:41





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