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 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

philologos asked

Quote:
Are you thinking that Christ himself would have been open to this possibility too?

I was not thinking that from the verse I mentioned, no.

However, what I WAS thinking, now you ask, is that to suggest the mighty Holy Spirit cannot by-pass the presence of a lesser spirit, to have fellowship with a believer, doesn't make sense. It is to suggest that a demon is strong enough to keep the Holy Spirit out.

With regard to Jesus, He was the Word made Flesh. A body was prepared for Him. Yet for us, Paul clearly separates the flesh from the spirit/Spirit in

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I can't remember what your thoughts are about Romans 7, but I personally do not think it is referring to the time before Paul was born again. I believe this statement is made with the lucidity of one who has found the answer. But, tying in with Romans 8:11 which I mentioned earlier, there is clear (to me) the promise that as we obey the Spirit, Christ will be formed in our flesh. The flesh does not continue to be beyond the reach of the transforming power of God.

This also makes sense of the further step which Peter describes, that he who has [i]suffered[/i] in the flesh has [i][b]ceased[/b][/i] from sin. (1:4:1,2)

I have yet to be convinced that actions provoked by a renegade spirit, affecting the physical or mental behaviour of the demoniac, are regarded by God as sin - eg the spirit of infirmity.

They may work together with the sinful nature before the person accepts the death of Christ, but afterwards, there is a conflict - much written about on SI - which is not incompatible with the presence of lesser spirits residing in the flesh. This might explain why the flesh seems to be so strong.

I say that, because I've long been struck by the way Jesus and the disciples could cast out spirits and heal, before Pentecost and those delivered were not immediately recolonised by demons, because of the [i]absence[/i] of the Holy Spirit in their lives. A good example is Legion, who is desribed as being in his 'right mind'. This suggests strongly that there [i]is[/i] a 'right mind' of a human being, which is not dependant on the Spirit of Christ being present to bring the mind of Christ to bear. The mind of Christ is a step closer to being God-like.

I will answer the earlier question as soon as I can but, it may be tomorrow at earliest.

 2005/10/12 16:04
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
However, what I WAS thinking, now you ask, is that to suggest the mighty Holy Spirit cannot by-pass the presence of a lesser spirit, to have fellowship with a believer, doesn't make sense. It is to suggest that a demon is strong enough to keep the Holy Spirit out.


On the contrary, you seem to be suggesting that the 'mighty Holy Spirit' cannot keep a lesser spirit out.

Quote:
I have yet to be convinced that actions provoked by a renegade spirit, affecting the physical or mental behaviour of the demoniac, are regarded by God as sin - eg the spirit of infirmity.


I have yet to be convinced that 'sins' can be committed by renegade spirits through a human being.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/12 16:48Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
On the contrary, you seem to be suggesting that the 'mighty Holy Spirit' cannot keep a lesser spirit out.

According to your understanding, the Holy Spirit cannot [u]get in, unless[/u] all other spirits have been removed. I'm disputing that because if a person wanted to receive the Holy Spirit, you are implying all lesser spirits will automatically leave to [i]enable[/i] the Holy Spirit to enter.

It may be true that some lesser spirits leave when the Holy Spirit enters but, where there is a need for healing (of many different sorts of trauma - possibly some self-inflicted but not necessarily so), there is need for specific ministry to the requirement for healing. Further, there may be a need to cast the spirit out before healing can take place. For sure, healing will not take place while the spirit is there but, the soul who follows after righteousness [u]will[/u] receive a certain amount of deliverance from demons (if they have any). It is worth noting that no person can follow after righteousness without the help of the Holy Spirit, or, it is called 'works'.

Quote:
I have yet to be convinced that 'sins' can be committed by renegade spirits through a human being.

All spirits need a body to work through. My point is that an evil spirit is too strong for the person. That's why the Name of Jesus is needed to remove it.

OF COURSE the nature of a demon is to torment the person till they sin... that's what they do... but my thesis is that Jesus had ample opportunity to speak to every newly delivered-from-demons adult and child yet there is not one reference to the advice He gave, such as the 'go and sin no more' to those whose actions He [u]did[/u] [i]call[/i] sin and whose power to [i]stop[/i] sinning was not [i]dependent[/i] on them being delivered from an unclean or evil spirit.

Were an evil spirit's thoughts, motives and 'actions' to be analysed in isolation from a human body, they would automatically be out of fellowship with God. No contest. But the New Testament refers to the effect of a spirit on a person, never calling it 'sin'. Our perception that [i]God[/i] calls it sin, is an extrapolation, I believe, although I fully agree that the [i]appearance[/i] to an observer, is that the possessed person is sinning. However, Christ's compassion sees them as [i]tormented[/i] and delivers them without condemnation.

 2005/10/12 18:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
According to your understanding, the Holy Spirit cannot get in, unless all other spirits have been removed. I'm disputing that because if a person wanted to receive the Holy Spirit, you are implying all lesser spirits will automatically leave to enable the Holy Spirit to enter.

It may be true that some lesser spirits leave when the Holy Spirit enters but, where there is a need for healing (of many different sorts of trauma - possibly some self-inflicted but not necessarily so), there is need for specific ministry to the requirement for healing. Further, there may be a need to cast the spirit out before healing can take place. For sure, healing will not take place while the spirit is there but, the soul who follows after righteousness will receive a certain amount of deliverance from demons (if they have any). It is worth noting that no person can follow after righteousness without the help of the Holy Spirit, or, it is called 'works'.


Where do you get these notions from? This is why I called it psychology and not theology. I distrust psychology, but not as much as I distrust psychology with Bible labels.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/13 7:31Profile









 Re:

Sorry - tried to contribute but then realised I don't really have a clue!

Clueless - I am not calling myself that for nothing! :-)

 2005/10/13 7:55
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re:

Quote:
Where do you get these notions from? This is why I called it psychology and not theology. I distrust psychology, but not as much as I distrust psychology with Bible labels.


The debate is not about what we understand about the spiritual realm or the spiritual condition of man, but what God tells us through what some call discernment. This too is a spiritual matter.

I don't think that we should be debating whether a demon and the Holy Spirit dwell somehow in the same vessel. What is it that allows some Christians to understand certain things and others not? May be it is "Christ in them?"

John 2
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Matthew 22
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Galatians 4
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Colossians 1
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Even though the Bible doesn’t clearly states it, some of the things that Peter did and “knew” may give us the understanding that Peter had “Christ in him.”

As Jesus knew what was in man, so by the account in Acts 5, it would appear that Peter having Christ in him, also “knew what was in man,” and could declare that Ananias had lied to the Holy Ghost.

If Christians today would have Christ in them too, they too would – because of the witness of the Holy Spirit – know “what was in man.”

I wouldn’t dare calling that psychology, not even with a “Christian” label.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/13 7:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I wouldn’t dare calling that psychology, not even with a “Christian” label.


What I meant by that phrase was my discomfort with counselling techniques which are really based in secular psychology but which use the language of the Bible. Some counsellors use 'regression' to trace the residual problems. This has become a major industry in some quarters with seminars and extension courses. I can see no evidence of this kind of counselling in the New Testament.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/13 9:54Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
Some counsellors use 'regression' to trace the residual problems. This has become a major industry in some quarters with seminars and extension courses. I can see no evidence of this kind of counselling in the New Testament.


I wholeheartedly agree with you Ron. Yet, with Christians in an environment of prayer and seeking God, I was taken back to the exact time and location of the incident of the “assault” against me. We didn’t ask God for this; in no way did we even attempt to do this, for neither I nor they knew this when we met that morning. I didn’t know about this incident until that exact moment in time. When I saw myself in that situation, I knew and physically felt the assault and the incredible psychological injury that it caused me. This was a supernatural event. There are only two sources for the supernatural: God and the devil. Since I was taken back into that situation and understood what happened and I yelled, I hate you, was I able to forgive the people who caused the pain. This would not have been initiated by the devil. The devil – to what I understand about his wiles - doesn’t want people free.

After the Christians who were with me commanded the spirit of rage to leave me, it came out with a very loud scream that was heard by the various other small groups who were behind closed doors in the same part of the building. My throat hurt for several days after. The only definite “proof” I have of this is that when a baby or small child cries uncontrollably, I want to pick it up and comfort it. Prior to this, I wanted to hit it. Since I became a Christian, I never did, but I still had kicked and hit a puppy. Unless you have done this, you will not understand what an enormous guilt to produces in a person who “claims” and believes that he or she is a Christian, and is told that when you sin you are a child of the devil.

Was Christ fully formed in me? No, HE WASN’T. Had I been born-again? Yes, I had because I knew that Jesus had died for my sins. I publicly confessed it to people who didn’t want to hear it. Within a week of being “saved,” I bought an English Bible and began to read it every morning before I went to work. I joined a prayer group within two weeks. Even the most staunch critic had to admit that Prang had become “weird.” Did I know that God loved me? Yes, I did, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to tell people about Jesus.

According to the people who “had baptized” me in the Spirit, so I spoke in tongues, I was filled with the Spirit. I don’t believe that anymore. The Holy Spirit certainly was present in me; because He bore witness that I belonged to Christ, in spite of my “difficulties.” I thank my Lord that He is more accepting than many Christians. Even when I still struggled with some issues, did the Holy Spirit talk to me. If He was on the inside or the outside and how much He occupied the physical space of my body, and how much space was taken up by the spirit of rage, I leave to God. This we will never be able to explain, nor do we have to. It is because we do attempt to explain in our human finite frailty and don’t allow God to work fully in the lives of people WHO REALLY SEEK HIM, many are left struggling.

This then - I'd be inclined to say - becomes psychology or psychiatry, because the spiritual man is humanly explained.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/13 11:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
When I saw myself in that situation, I knew and physically felt the assault and the incredible psychological injury that it caused me. This was a supernatural event. There are only two sources for the supernatural: God and the devil.

What, using biblical terms, would be your definition of 'psychological injury'?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/13 14:31Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2739
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Yet, with Christians in an environment of prayer and seeking God, I was taken back to the exact time and location of the incident of the “assault” against me. We didn’t ask God for this; in no way did we even attempt to do this, for neither I nor they knew this when we met that morning. I didn’t know about this incident until that exact moment in time. When I saw myself in that situation, I knew and physically felt the assault and the incredible psychological injury that it caused me. This was a supernatural event. There are only two sources for the supernatural: God and the devil. Since I was taken back into that situation and understood what happened and I yelled, I hate you, was I able to forgive the people who caused the pain. This would not have been initiated by the devil. The devil – to what I understand about his wiles - doesn’t want people free.



I'm curious, was this under some Theophostic Ministry? What you are describing sounds alot like what I have read from that type of ministry. For example they might say... "If I try to resolve my present conflict without finding healing for my past wounds (memories with embedded lies), I will only find temporary relief. However, if I heal my past, I will redeem my present." My question to that notion would be, are we trying to heal our past or are we trusting that God has made us a new creation ala 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Theophostic ministry would say that the emotions must be felt in order to rightly identify the lies I believe. The emotions I feel will match the lies I believe. But we don't have to go back and face something that the Bible says is gone when we become a new creation in Christ. Yes some pain is still there but wouldn't God help us deal with it without making us go back and experience it again?

Jesus always dealt with people where they were then and how they should live from then on. He never made one of them go back and deal with the past to be saved or healed. What causes people to sin, is it historical wounds or is it our own evil lusts?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/10/13 14:43Profile





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