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baruch_48
Member



Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 wilkerson message on revival in the end times

I didn't want to touch this folder, after having posted my burden against this fantasy notion we have of avoiding judgment in America, about a month ago. I didn't realize that "revival focus" was such a prime thing at the site ( only later did I begin to realize )

I am into "revival" in the sense of what's expressed on the Why Revival Still Taries thread in the Lounge ... and particularly, with the words of roadsign's post on it.


Today, I listened to David Wilkerson for the first time ever ( I don't know all of these guys a lot of you are familiar with ) ...

this sermon

-
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4390]wilkerson sermon[/url]

is utterly in line with the point I made at the start of my old 'thread' - Let's Stop Talking About Revival in America

I can see why people have described D. Wilkerson as a 'prophet' ... and I'm just about entirely in agreement with this message.

For any of you who love America and think your praying for Her can or will forestall the judgments of Heaven on this land ... have a listen to the message.

Not that Wilkerson is "the voice" of God ... but the Spirit speaks cogently, thru this, given in 1989 or so.


from Bro Chris to me, last month that I didn't answer:


Quote:
I may be wrong, but from the tone of your post, it seems as if [b]you don't care[/b] if (or even want for) America to become more ungodly.

It seems that you may even believe that since the end is inevitable, we might as well just "let it happen."

That will not hasten the Lord's return. It will just hasten the kingdom of darkness.




I don't care .. and nor should any of us, if we're focused on the [i] coming Kingdom[/i]. Yes, in fact, the sooner America ( and the entire world ) becomes more and more ungodly ... the sooner the End will come.

Why are we afraid of this ?

Why do we pollyanish-ly wish to "forestall" the reign of Evil .... thinking that our petty american kingdoms ... or whatever kingdoms we "camp" around .... will satisfy that HUNGER in our hearts - that yearns for Righteousness --- and a new heaven and a new earth -- a home of righteousness.

Why do we want America instead of the Kingdom, I ask.

The hastening coming of the hour of darkness on this earth is indeed inevitable, or if we think not, we reject the Scripture ... for our pollyanish american fantasies.


Chris, you need to die to America ( Gal 6:14 )


in love,

Bro B

 2005/10/5 10:32Profile
ruhappy
Member



Joined: 2005/3/9
Posts: 14


 Re: wilkerson message on revival in the end times

i am gonna listen now! :-o

 2005/10/5 10:35Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: wilkerson message on revival in the end times

Hi baruch_48...!

Quote:
I don't care .. and nor should any of us, if we're focused on the coming Kingdom. Yes, in fact, the sooner America ( and the entire world ) becomes more and more ungodly ... the sooner the End will come.

Why do we pollyanish-ly wish to "forestall" the reign of Evil .... thinking that our petty american kingdoms ... or whatever kingdoms we "camp" around .... will satisfy that HUNGER in our hearts - that yearns for Righteousness --- and a new heaven and a new earth -- a home of righteousness.

Why do we want America instead of the Kingdom, I ask.

The hastening coming of the hour of darkness on this earth is indeed inevitable, or if we think not, we reject the Scripture ... for our pollyanish american fantasies.


Chris, you need to die to America ( Gal 6:14 )

Baruch, thank you for your concern. But I believe that you have misjudged me. You seem to have jumped to a conclusion that was [u]wrong[/u] about [i]what[/i] I believe and [i]why[/i] I believe it.

Yes, I do care about America and the people in this country. And I do not apologize for that. Why? Because I live here. It is my responsibility (and the responsibility of all believers located in this country) to reach out to the lost and dying. As Keith Green was told by Leonard Ravenhill, "[i]This generation of believers is responsible for this generation of unbelievers[/i]". I care for my parents, my sisters and my friends. If I ever get married, I will care for my wife and children. I care about fellow believers. I also care about the unbelievers that live in this nation (and the rest of the world). I will not sit idle as the nation around me "[i]goes to Hell in a handbasket[/i]." I will continue to preach the [i]Good News[/i] to anyone who will here. I will continue to urge those that I have led to the Lord to also preach the [i]Gospel[/i] to others. I will vote in such a way as to fight blatant unrighteousness in the government (such as legalized abortion, assisted suicide, and homosexual marriage). I do not apologize for that.
Quote:
I Timothy 5:8

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

It is this type of attitude that motivated Ray Comfort to climb up a billboard and nail a blanket over the advertisement of a half-naked woman. It is this type of attitude that caused my mother to call the local school board because I was sent home for wearing a christian t-shirt and for reading my Bible during home room. It is this type of attitude that caused David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill and other ministries to apply for [i]501(c)[/i] tax exempt status in this country.

Do I believe that America is going to experience a "[i]great last day revival[/i]?" Probably not. But this is not to say that God does not desire this! I believe that it is the heart of God that many in this nation would come to Him through repentence (in effect, a [i]revival[/i] of sorts) before the end. We still have our "marching orders" ("[i]Go ye therefore into all the world...[/i]"). And I don't attempt this with [i]blind optimism[/i]. But neither do I attempt this with [i]blind pessimism[/i]. I preach the Gospel knowing that God is with me.

Do I think that America will become a "[i]great and shining city on a hill[/i]" in these last days? Again, the answer is no. But it does not mean that I will not vote. I will continue to vote against immorality and for any type of legislative protection of faith. And I will continue to pray that another "[i]Great Awakening[/i]" will happen in this nation. It happened in the days of Finney and Whitfield. I pray that it can happen again.

Quote:
Chris, you need to die to America ( Gal 6:14 )

That is very true, Baruch. We [u]all[/u] need to die to this entire world system. But you do not know me. You do not know the times that I have been rejected by family and friends and even other "Christians" for the sake of Christ. You do not know the times that I have faced physical violence for preaching the Gospel of Christ. And you do not know what the message is that I preach. You have simply judged me by a few words written in a post or two.

I have been on SermonIndex for quite some time now. Initially, I frequented this website primarily to download sermons from Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, Tozer, etc... But I still enjoyed reading the posts. I have seen alot of people come and go. Sometimes, they begin their time here posting like [i]there is no tomorrow[/i] -- only to get "attacked" by other believers for voicing their opinion on matters of doctrine. And sometimes, there are some believers that frequently and unwittingly post "absolutes" on the website. They are not open to the possibility that they are wrong in any area, because "[i]God told them[/i]" something. Or you find believers who feel that their Biblical "[i]research[/i]" makes their argument beyond reproof (not realizing that others also very honestly research as well).

There are all sorts of people from varying doctrinal persuasions that visit SermonIndex. There are [i]pre-tribbers[/i] and [i]post-tribbers[/i]. There are [i]calvinists[/i] and [i]arminists[/i] (and everything in between or outside this doctrine). There are [i]tongue-talkers[/i] and [i]non tongue-talkers[/i]. There are [i]KJV-only[/i] and [i]non KJV-only[/i]. There are those who watch some television, and those who believe that those who own a TV will burn forever. There are "[i]hymn-only[/i]" believers and "[i]anything-goes-as-long-as-it-is-'Christian'[/i]" believers (again, and everything in between). There are even "[i]don't wear shorts[/i]" people and "[i]often wear shorts[/i]" people. This list could go on and on. The point is, there are [u]many[/u] types of believers that frequent this website. I have noticed that many do not participate in the forums. And sadly, there have been people that have left the website because they were either hurt or offended.

The Bible is indeed [i]black-and-white[/i]. The danger comes when some believers forget that believers are [u]not[/u] [i]black-and-white[/i]. We are all at different points in our spiritual walks. Most of us are not the same people that we were five or ten years ago. We are still believers, but we have matured (or sometimes, regressed) in our spiritual growth. The danger comes when we hold an "[i]I am right and you are wrong[/i]" type of attitude, without considering the possibility of being wrong (or even misinformed).

Typically, when I see the posts of others that I disagree with, I just smile and thank God for the diversity of understanding. But I always pray about what is written. Many times, I research the things that are posted, testing the validity of what was said. I have learned a great many things as a result -- even things that made me re-examine my doctrinal belief on a certain matter. Sadly, there are also those that post with a [i]spiritually proud[/i] attitude. They believe that if you don't accept what [u]they[/u] say -- then you are [i]deceived[/i]. On some matters, this could be true. We can all agree on the importance of knowing and fellowshipping with the Lord Jesus Christ. There are other matters of doctrine that are indisputable. But there are other matters of doctine that are conflictual. In these, we should be patient with those that we disagree -- realizing that sometimes, our disagreement is actually a misunderstanding (or that we may also be wrong). About such things, we should be "[i]slow to post[/i]."
Quote:
James 1:19-20

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

:-)
Quote:
Could a mariner sit idle if he heard the drowning cry?
Could a doctor sit in comfort and just let his patients die?
Could a fireman sit idle, let men burn and give no hand?
Can you sit at ease in Zion with the world around you DAMNED?

-Leonard Ravenhill


_________________
Christopher

 2005/10/5 13:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------

Could a mariner sit idle if he heard the drowning cry?
Could a doctor sit in comfort and just let his patients die?
Could a fireman sit idle, let men burn and give no hand?
Can you sit at ease in Zion with the world around you DAMNED?

-Leonard Ravenhill


Since I've been a member here, I don't think I've met one person on here who would or has disagreed with the sentiments in this quote.



It's a true knack or expertise or even genius, to cut throats or whatever type cut it is ... so 'gently' that the person or those around watching, can't even see that that is what is being done. Or why.



Anyhow, thank you for posting this message. It's been a long time since I've heard it.

 2005/10/5 14:24
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi GrannieAnnie...!

Quote:
Anyhow, thank you for posting this message. It's been a long time since I've heard it.

You're welcome. Someone posted it on SermonIndex the other day. I read it in [i]Why Revival Tarries[/i] by Leonard Ravenhill, and I put it up on my wall.
Quote:
It's a true knack or expertise or even genius, to cut throats or whatever type cut it is ... so 'gently' that the person or those around watching, can't even see that that is what is being done. Or why.

I don't understand what you mean here, though. I don't think that the poem is "[i]cutting throats[/i]." Perhaps it would be better to say that it is [i]healing[/i], rather than alluding it as causing death. Then again, I might be misunderstanding the statement (or reading into it a little more than I ought). Maybe you could explain the comment a little more. Thank you!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/10/5 14:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:

---------------------------------------

Could a mariner sit idle if he heard the drowning cry?
Could a doctor sit in comfort and just let his patients die?
Could a fireman sit idle, let men burn and give no hand?
Can you sit at ease in Zion with the world around you DAMNED?

-Leonard Ravenhill


Since I've been a member here, I don't think I've met one person on here who would or has disagreed with the sentiments in this quote.




No, Ravenhill nor Wilkerson's "cuts" were never done stealthfully.

They'd yell, "appear impolite" at times, and you knew right where they stood, or where you stood with them.

They never hid behind polite platitudes, and neither did Jesus, nor Paul, or our O.T. Prophets.

They all just "said it like it is", and they had no self-promoting or self-glorifying reasons for saying what they did. Some preachers or teachers out there do.

I guess what I mean to say is, I really respect those type, that show us their real thoughts and don't try to be "over-nice" with their rebukes, so that no one can actually pick up on the "digs" in there, unless they've seen that type operation before.

Jesus or Ravenhill and Wilkerson and our Biblical fellows were not like that at all, so I agree with you on your point about Ravenhill's intent.

If someone disagrees with me or others or feels another is wrong somewhere, I'd much rather they were painfully honest and upfront and direct, ("Precious are the wounds of a friend" type thing), then to hide their digs under the frosting sweetness that camouflages those digs from others, so that they are seen as "Christ-like" while making others look "not so".

See ?


And the message I meant, I'm sorry, was David Wilkerson's Audio.

His Best to all.

 2005/10/5 15:50
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Soft and Gentle Answers...

Hi GrannieAnnie...!

Quote:
No, Ravenhill nor Wilkerson's "cuts" were never done stealthfully.

They'd yell, "appear impolite" at times, and you knew right where they stood, or where you stood with them.

They never hid behind polite platitudes, and neither did Jesus, nor Paul, or our O.T. Prophets.

Just because a person is loud or outspoken, it doesn't mean that they are correct. And just because a person speaks with a more gentle answer does not mean that they have a "[i]hidden agenda[/i]" or are hiding behind "[i]polite platitudes[/i]." In fact, the manner in which we speak has nothing to do with the power of the word that is given. It is [u]wrong[/u] to judge the hearts of people by such outward mannerisms.

Yes, Jesus and the apostles might sometimes have appeared "impolite" with their words -- but only to those who were [i]spiritually divisive[/i] and [i]manipulative[/i]. And they only spoke what they were [u]certain[/u] were the Words of God. It was void of error or human opinion. In other words, it was [i]indisputable truth[/i]. On such things, there can be no Biblical argument or disagreement. In fact, even children were drawn to such words of Christ. But what about men and women who share what they [i][u]think[/u][/i] they have heard or learned from God? What happens when a person loudly preaches his own spiritual and theological [u]opinion[/u] -- and then treats those who do not agree like they are [i]spiritually deceived[/i]?

That has happened on occasion here at SermonIndex. Usually, the most blatant examples of such people are dealt with quickly and suddenly become "[i]anonymous[/i]." There have been people who have "prophesied" all sorts of things in the name of God -- but were obviously speaking their own controversial opinion or theology. They were loud, outspoken and abrasive -- yet they truly believed that they were speaking for God. Regardless of how loud or abrasively they spoke, it still did not make their words [u]true[/u].

I have no problem with people who are loud or "say things like it is." They should always be allowed to even shout a topic -- as long as they are speaking [i]undeniable truth[/i] for the purpose of edification with real compassion, meekness and love. In fact, I am drawn to those who preach and teach in such a manner. They speak the truth boldy in love and humility. But I hurt when people speak with such a manner as "[i]I am right and you are wrong[/i]" -- especially when the truth is still unclear. Some people have acted as though they hold a monopoly on truth and Biblical research. Sometimes, they act in such a way as to make it appear that those who disagree are either [i]spiritually immature[/i], [i]spiritually deceived[/i], or perhaps [i]lost[/i]. Such spiritual arrogance is often rooted in pride, and is not something that the Lord would commend us for. There are several threads about [i]false spiritual authoritarianism[/i] by some church leaders. But the same type of spiritual pride can extend even to well-meaning believers. If someone disagrees with them on a topic or issue, they accuse them of being [i]deceived[/i] or having [i]itching ears[/i].

David Wilkerson has sometimes been very outspoken. But he once wrote that he regretted some of the things that he had said or written in the past. David Wilkerson is not the same man he was in 1959 (or 1969, 1979 or 1989). Like everyone else, he is also growing and maturing in the faith. As he matures, his understanding of doctinal issues might change as well (he used to preach that [i]New York City[/i] is the [i]Babylon[/i] of Revelation 17-18 -- but I am not certain what he preaches now). I imagine that the same is true for everyone. We have all said something that we later regretted. This reminds us of our own fallible humanity, and our need for the grace of God. It also reminds us of our need to "[i]test everything[/i]" (I Thessalonians 5:21).

The Word of God is clear that we should be "[i]swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath[/i]" (James 1:19-20). Again, we are reminded in Proverbs that "[i]A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger[/i]" (Proverbs 15:1). This reminds us of the heart of God. Yes, Christ might have sounded very harsh when he spoke to certain Pharisees, Sadducees and the Teachers of the Law. But he only spoke those unmistakable truths with compassion, meekness and love. I know that it sounds clichéd, but Jesus "[i]wept before he whipped[/i]." He wept over Jerusalem with deep sorrow -- wanting to gather the city as a hen gathers its chicks.

I really don't think that there is anything wrong with being gentle with your answers. Likewise, not everyone that uses gentle answers is attempting to "[i]hide their digs under the frosting sweetness that camouflages those digs from others, so that they are seen as "Christ-like" while making others look "not so"[/i]. To accuse someone of such (or of being a part of the "[i]evil American/Babylonian system[/i]") is to judge them without knowing their heart. And it is wrong to be prejudiced against such gentleness. In fact, Paul [u]preferred[/u] using gentleness (I Corinthians 4:20). Like Jesus, Paul used a verbal whip only to confront blatant hypocrisy or obvious sin -- not those who honestly disagree on an issue of doctrine.

I am certain that most of the people that frequent the forums truly desire to know the truth. To say otherwise would be judging them unrighteously. Yet, for all of the issues that we agree on, posters in the forums often disagree on many others. I think that this would be true about any two people. I imagine that it would be difficult to find two believers that agreed on [u]everything[/u]. It is important that we agree on what is important. We can all agree on the need for salvation, prayer, fasting, the importance of holiness, evangelism, etc... But there are other topics that we can disagree on without ending our fellowship. We can either view those who disagree with our particular doctrinal views with [i]suspicion[/i], or we can use the opportunity to learn and test the perspectives of other people. Even though I do not always practice it, I am trying to do the latter.

Recently, I have stopped posting as often in the forums. It is not because I don't have something to say, but because I felt "attacked" for sharing my opinions or views on certain issues by a certain small group of believers. It is not a pleasant experience to have your motives questioned in a public forum of believers. And it is not fun to be improperly judged because my views differed somewhat on certain (usually insignificant) issues, or by the manner in which I post. My girlfriend, Mireya, has sometimes visited the forums. But she is turned off by the divisiveness or accusations that sometimes take place. I have chosen to remain because I enjoy the fellowship, and I really enjoy the messages that are provided for download. But I sometimes wonder how many others are offended or turned off by such conflict.

Annie, I pray that you know that my words are sincere. There is no "hidden agenda" to defend myself (or America) within my heart or words. The Lord knows my heart (even the innermost parts), and He knows the sincerity and depth at which I am willing to "[i]give up anything and everything[/i]" to follow Him. I know who I am in Christ -- and I know how far that I have to go. And I am certain that you write such things with true compassion. You have spent much time in the past in an attempt to make certain that I understand your words (either through PMs, email, or in the forums). I truly appreciate that concern -- and that display of love. I have learned alot from so many of you (especially you, Grannie). Please continue to pray for me. I am growing -- but I still have so far to grow.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/10/5 20:59Profile









 Re: Soft and Gentle Answers...

Chris, I read your post and I read it good, and I can't find one word in it that I disagree with.
Just a minor I'll address later here.

I didn't mean my words to sound like everyone has to yell. :-(

We had a Prof. named Tourville, he wrote the first "Pentacostal" commentary on the book of Acts.
They used to call him "Professor Somonex", cuz he was so "mellow" in his talks, that he'd put the young ones to sleep. Never "yelled" a day in his life.

But I couldn't get enough of listening to that man, and sat right up front (something I never did in any other class nor even in a Church), because I drank in every word from that man.

I only have a question on a part of your post here ...
""To accuse someone of such (or of being a part of the "evil American/Babylonian system") is to judge them without knowing their heart. And it is wrong to be prejudiced against such gentleness. In fact, Paul preferred using gentleness (I Corinthians 4:20). Like Jesus, Paul used a verbal whip only to confront blatant hypocrisy or obvious sin -- not those who honestly disagree on an issue of doctrine.""

Did I accuse you of being part of the "evil American/BlahBlah system" ??

And to say that I may judge 'according to gentleness' ... have you ever spoken to me on the phone ? Or live next door to me ?

And yes, Paul did prefer gentleness, and so do I 100% and people who 'know' me, face to face, think I'm the gentlest soul on earth (ha - I tell them, you don't know me very well) that even if I did yell, they'd know it was cuz I loved them or something, but no one has ever heard me yell in my lifetime, not even my own family (only my husband :), but it is not true that false doctrine did not upset Paul ... that was a chief problem in the Churches. He may have had more grief from that than anything.


When I first signed on here, I said that I go to/visit Presbyterian, Baptist, CoG, Methodist, Nazarene, Wesleyan, you name it, to be with my friends in Christ when invited. I'll visit any born again Church ... so I'm not the big bad sword swinger that you are talking about up there in your post.

Please understand what I was talking about in my one sentence that made you write all of this, and see if maybe the judging penulum isn't swinging this way now.

I've known David Wilkerson for 30 yr.s and he may have changed some things, but he's still the same sincere person he always was from the git go.

I was talking about that type of sincerity when I answered you the first time. I said some "teachers and preachers do this". That is not sincerity, like David Wilkerson or Ravenhill have always had. As in "contrasting" deception vs their sincerity, that has never wavered.

Your first post to Baruch was on the defensive too and I don't blame you for that ... I've been defensive on the Lounge today. (Could be solar flares or something - ha)
And my husband feels the same way Mireya does.
I also told someone here today, that I too need to back away more, because tensions are running too high and I'm only human.
I know all about Rom 8 and Gal 5, but cannot do it 24/7 yet and as you've said in the past, "even Paul and Barnabus had a rift"... so apparently, they couldn't do it 24/7 either.

Friend, I have no "hidden agenda" neither. What I am at home with my husband and friends and in solitude, I am here. Sometimes, "unfortunately", ha.

I am very human. I am not "all that", as the kids say.
All I have on earth is Him and His Words. And my cats. And that's it and that's the truth.

I don't mind you preaching at me above. I have a friend who claims to only be saved a little over a year, who I feel edifies my spirit more than anyone I know, except for one older sister in the Lord who lives up north. And when I first signed on here, I said, someone saved yesterday can speak the very oracles of God to me anyday.

But I hope you know, that I know, everything you are saying above already and don't find any fault in it except that one little point about Paul and doctrine.

You already know how much you stay in my prayers ... so no need to ask there.

And "we" are growing and will continue to "learn" through-out Eternity. We will "NEVER" know it all, even there.


Thanks for your note and mutual love.

Annie

 2005/10/5 22:03









 Re: wilkerson message on revival in the end times

While I'm on here, I answered this type statement on another thread yesterday.

But concerning the "I don't care" in the very first post on this thread ... I don't think we should say that.

I don't think David Wilkerson would say "I don't care" neither.

I understand most of what you're saying baruch, and we are yearning to see the end of evil when Messiah Comes, but we have to be careful to care for souls first.
Concerning 'His Coming' Peter wrote ...
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


We're in that strait (Phil 1:23) similar to what Paul said of his own desire to die and be with the Lord... but for the sake of "others" he reckoned it was better for him to stay.

I guess for others, we need to focus on them and not wish that any should perish neither.

I want to see His Face REALLY REALLY BAD, but I'm not in a hurry to see the seals, trumpets or vials ... it's going to be 'almost' as hard on us as on them.

Sure won't be a cake walk bro. "Those days" are to "try and purify" US too. Few will make it through or be saved at the end ... so I wouldn't mind having as much time as possible to prepare myself 'spiritually' to know His Voice and be strong in Him, before it hits the fan.

But thanks again for the D.W. message. Good stuff.

:-D

 2005/10/5 22:33
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi GrannieAnnie...!

Quote:
Did I accuse you of being part of the "evil American/BlahBlah system" ??

I apologize if it seemed that this statement (or this entire message post) was directed at you. It wasn't. I am only voicing my concern about many attitudes on the SermonIndex forum community. It is an attitude that "[i]I know the [u]truth[/u] -- and you are deceived[/i]." I almost fear writing a comment in a thread, because it often gets attacked or misunderstood. In one forum, I stated that I felt that America (of today) might not be the Babylon of Revelation chapter 17-18, and someone stated that I am "[i]deceived by the Babylonian system[/i]." Someone else told me that I was [i]blind[/i], while another advised me that I need to "[i]die to the American system[/i]." In another forum, I was [i]rebuked[/i] for posting a thread asking for prayer for the President.

Often, it is not [i]what is written[/i], but the [i]way in which it is written[/i] that is troubling. I have often felt [i]looked down upon[/i] or that I am viewed as [i]inferior or immature[/i] for believing a certain way or voicing an opinion or belief. It really doesn't bother me that much, other than it sometimes hurts a little or causes me to not want to post anything. But it is not just an issue with me, though. I have noticed this attitude in several threads that I have not been involved with. A certain believer is "[i]talked down to[/i]" by another believer who feels that their understanding of a certain doctrine is superior to another person.

I did feel, though, that your earlier comments about the [i]manner[/i] in which I post seemed to suggest that such answers are [i]deceptive[/i]. They are not. They are sincere. I am not "hiding behind polite platitudes" or attempting to be "overnice." I feel that I am just being gentle in my answers. I am just being myself -- and this is how I am in real life. My answers are not deceptive, nor am I trying to "spin" information or "manipulate" the attitudes of people. I just believe that it is Biblical to attempt a peaceful answer in a contemptuous situation. God knows my heart -- and he knows that I try to live at peace with all people (including those that I disagree with). But it hurts when it is suggested that I am either [i]willfully[/i] or [i]unknowingly[/i] being deceptive because of such posts. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your remarks. If so, I truly apologize.

Recently, I began reading about the biblical definition of rebukes. I sometimes fear that the rebukes found in the pages of forum threads are far too public than they should be. I am not talking about an open rebuke from Greg (sermonindex). I am talking about constant rebukes from one another over certain issues of doctrine or belief. The Bible is quite clear about the way a rebuke ought to be carried out. First of all, the offense requiring such a rebuke should be obvious from the Scriptures. Secondly, the rebuke is meant to be helpful. Third, the initial rebukes are meant to be private. And if the rebuke is ignored (and the sin is ongoing), the rebuke can become public (first with another person, then with elders, and finally within the Church). If someone still doesn't listen and they openly continue to sin, then there is the step of disfellowship (Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 14:13; Leviticus 19:17-19; I Corinthians 1:10-11; 4:14-21; 5:1; 11:20-21; 13:1-7; II Corinthians 10:1; Galations 6:1; Philippians 2:1-3; I Thessalonians 2:7-11; Hebrews 12:6; Revelation 2:1-21; 3:19). But the open rebukes found in our forums are often heated -- and concern doctrinal positions (rather than sin). And often, they seem to be confrontational rather than edifying. In effect, what starts as a "loving rebuke" turns into a heated argument.

Sometimes, I feel that the pages of the threads are often contentious because some people state as [u]fact[/u] what is actually [u]opinion[/u]. People forget to use the words, "[i]I believe[/i]" or "[i]It is my belief[/i]" when sharing a controversial subject. When someone suddenly disagrees or questions the validity of their belief, they feel that someone is attacking them personally, or what they believe to be true. Perhaps if we all realized the diversity of spiritual understanding or opinion concerning matters of non-vital doctrine, these situations could be avoided. If someone sees that something posted is more of an opinion (albeit well-researched opinion), perhaps others might not be as offended.

In any case, I really appreciate all of the people that frequent the forums. When we all arrive to the eternal hereafter, I hope to spend some time meeting one another and worshipping the Lord together! What a day that will be!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/10/5 23:59Profile





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