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beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Sin after Salvation - an illustration

This is a parable about sin after salvation:
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One day, King John decided that he wanted to take for himself a wife who could share in his love and glory. He journeyed across the land in search of a suitable woman only to discover that every woman in the land was a smoker. This was a problem, for John was a nonsmoker. Smoke conflicted with his very nature. It was impossible for John to be around smoke. In fact, if smokers ever came near him, he would have to cast them from his presence and condemn them. Being a just and might King, he did not want to condemn all the women in his land. So, he devised a plan.

John came down to the village from his castle. In public, he gave a mighty demonstration of his mercy and grace. He lifted himself up in front of everyone and killed the part of himself that could not be near smokers by suffering their condemnation. His blood shed down upon the streets and became a mighty testimony of his love for all the women in the land. John still hated smoke. But from that point on, all women were forgiven for their smoking and now the mighty King could be in their presence. So he wandered again across the land proposing to different women asking them to be his wife.

John went forth telling all the women that if they would repent for their smoking, they could be his wife. He told them to come forward. “I will help you with your smoking. I will cleanse you of this filthy habit, and you can live forever with me in love.” He said.

The first woman he asked said, “No.” She did not want to turn from her smoking. She enjoyed smoking too much, and did not think anything was wrong with it. She could not accept John or his offer. So, John let her go.

The second woman he asked also said, “No.” However, she decided to quit smoking. She said, “I want other people to see how good I am. I want them to know how strong and independent I am.” She went around telling everyone how she quit smoking.

The third woman he asked also said, “No.” This woman quickly ran from John, but followed him at a distance. She knew that King John had great power and wanted the other people to think she was going to be his wife. She stayed just far enough away that John could not see her, but she told all the other women that John was her fiancé. Only John knew the truth about her, and he also knew she would be revealed later at the wedding, when he would make all his true lovers into his wives.

The fourth woman he asked said, “Yes.” She fell down on her knees knowing what John had done for her. She was overwhelmed by his mercy and grace. She asked John to forgive her for smoking and to help her. John was so touched by her that he gave her the finest engagement ring ever known and wrapped it tightly around her heart so that she would never lose it. John promised that one day he would marry her. On that day, she would be made into a new person and shaped with a new body. Until then, she would carry her engagement ring on her heart to help her and remind her of his love.

Her heart was transformed. It was as if someone had lit a huge fire inside of her. Everywhere she went, she told people of her newfound love and what King John had done for her. This continued for quite awhile before the fire started to die down.
After the engagement, she tried to quit smoking. Everyone told her to “Stop Smoking.” It seemed simple to her. She loved John with all her heart, so she should stop for him. She wanted to stop, but found that she couldn’t. It was too difficult. At first, she did well. She hardly smoked. After time, however, she began smoking more and more.

The other woman in town began talking about her. She could hear the whispers. “How can she call herself the fiancé of John? He is too good a man for her. Look at how she smokes.” Many people looked down upon her. Others did not believe she was the fiancé of John. They thought her story was absurd. “Why would King John do all that for her?”

These whispers stirred in her mind. She cried out to John several times. She begged him to help her. “Help me stop smoking. Please.” However, it seemed like John was never there. He seemed so far away. So, she kept on smoking and feeling more and more bad about herself.

The struggle became a huge war. She began hiding it from John thinking that he didn’t notice. If John knew, why didn’t he say anything or punish her? It was not that John was not there, he was there the whole time, she just ignored him. She was too focused on her smoking. She would say, “This will be my last one” and fight against it, until she fell weak started smoking again. After some time, she wore down. She was smoking two or three packs a day. She became terribly depressed and started to doubt John’s love for her. “How could John love me? I am a horrible smoker.” The fire and excitement she once had in heart was nearly gone.

A day came where she broke. She fell down in a fit of tears. John saw her and quickly came to her. He knew why she was crying, but for her sake, he asked, “Why do you cry my dear?”

“Because I don’t deserve to be with you. I am a horrible smoker. I cannot quit smoking. I am weak.” She said.

“Don’t you know that I forgave you? You have my ring wrapped around your heart.” He said.

“I know, but you don’t like smoke. You don’t want me to smoke and I still do it. You shed your blood for me. I should stop smoking.” She said.

“Do you want to quit smoking?” He asked.

“Yes, I do but I can’t. I am weak.” She said. There was a pause. She burst out in tears. “How can you possibly love me? I am ugly.”

He put his hand under her arm, looked at her straight in the eyes and lifted her up. “I love you my dear, even though you smoke. I love you all the more for your weakness.” Tears rolled down her face. She knew it was true.

He continued, “I made a promise to you, don’t you remember? I said one day I would make you beautiful. Trust me. I will remove all your smoking. However, that time has not come yet. It will not happen until we are married. I have already given you a new heart. Your heart has never failed you. Inside, you know that smoking is bad. You don’t like smoking. However, your body is still weak. When we marry, I will give you a new body. At that time, you will be made beautiful, more beautiful than anything and everything. You beauty will shine with all my glory.” She cried, she also knew this was true.

“Until that time, do not worry about your smoking, my love. Do not be focused on it. Instead, put all your focus on me. When you hide from me, it hurts me. I love you. I want to have a relationship with you. I want to spend time with you and give my love to you. Come and spend time with me. When you spend time with me, you will be closer to your heart. You will not think about smoking and it will not control you for you will be close to me. You know I don’t like to smoke. In your love for me, you will not smoke when I am near. However, when you turn away from me and look toward other things, then you smoke more heavily. Stay close to me and think about me in everything you do. This will help you. And if you do smoke, remember what I did for you. Remember that I shed my blood for you and that you are forgiven. I don’t want you to smoke. This is true. However, in my love I understand you are weak. My grace will be sufficient for you. Trust me.” He kissed her on her forehead. She felt a warm rush of His love over her body and her tears dried. She curled near him and her heart was on fire again.

King John knew she would fall away again. No matter how many times, his love always prevailed. Each time she would fall down broken, he would lift her up. As time passed, she would learn to walk in his presence always keeping him close. These pitfalls would become less and less and her love would mature.

Then the wedding day arrived. It was the most glorious day. He had kept all his promises, and on that day she shined brighter than any star. The whole land rejoiced of King John’s love and the awesome beauty of his bride who chose to love him in return. They lived forever united in love, and together they reigned supreme over all the land.


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/5 9:55Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Sin after Salvation - an illustration

Quote:
He lifted himself up in front of everyone and killed the part of himself that could not be near smokers by suffering their condemnation.


beenblake
this is a cute story but it has some dangerous flaws. This sets up love as the killer of holiness. God's love and holiness are not opposites. His love is holy love, and his holiness is an aspect of his love. He did not remove his holiness in order to come near, rather he removes the cause of the offence so that the sinner can come near to him.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/5 11:10Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

It is really a matter of semantics. God's Holiness was satisfied by the death of Jesus.

What is the cause of offence? The cause is the breaking of the law. If we did not have the law, we would not sin.

Jesus is God. God died. However, he lives. How is that possible? How can something that died bring itself back to life? A part of God died on the cross. What part? His anger. His revenge. His retribution. His sovereignty.

For instance, let's say you are an upstanding man who hates theft. However, while visiting the store, you discover that your son has stolen a candy bar. What will you do? As a good and upstanding man, you must punish the boy. It is the right thing to do. However, as a father, you love him and do not want to punish him. So what do you do?

Part of you says, "Just let it go." But another part says, "This boy must be punished. He did wrong." And so, you make both sides happy. How? You suffer the punishment for the boy.

By doing this, you killed off a part of yourself that accuses the boy. You did not kill your goodness. You merely killed the part that must enforce your goodness upon the boy. This is the part that must be right. This part can also be looked upon as your sovereignty or authority. You gave up a part of your power in order to overlook the boys sin.

God did this through Jesus. It is important that it was throught Jesus. For in the above case, the boy could have easily seen how you overlooked the punishment and in return thought, "Well, I guess that means I can do whatever I want." Oops, that doesn't work. Instead, God gave His authority to Jesus, and said, "If you believe in Him, you will be saved."

Given the above example, it would be like you saying to the boy, "If you call me father and believe everything I say, then I will overlook what you stole and help you never steal again. However, if you do not recognize me as your father, then I will turn you over to your punishment, and leave you to be condemned." You do this, because if the boy recognizes you as his father (his authority), then he will accept your help. However, if he does not believe in you, he will reject your help. If he rejects your help, then there is no hope for him. He is forever lost.

That is why it is so important to believe in Jesus specifically. The God of the Jews and the God of the Christians, is the same God. However, life only comes through Jesus. How can that be?

God is basically saying, "To all those who submit unto Jesus, He will be thier God and judge. And Jesus forgives all sin. However, all those who do not, will be judged by me. You will be judged by my Holiness."

Maybe I am wrong, but this is just my perspective on it.

Thanks for sharing.

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/5 12:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is really a matter of semantics. God's Holiness was satisfied by the death of Jesus.


Hi beenblake
this isn't really semantics. We are not playing with 'words' here but are dealing with vital biblical revelation. Technically it is God's righteousness requirement which was satisfied by the death of His Son in our place, rather than His holiness. We must not open the door to some kind of dichotomy or scizophrenia within God Himself. His holiness is an attribute; that means it is an aspect of his character. Your story makes his holiness something which 'has to be killed' and this cannot be right. The whole point about substitutionary atonement is that God did not change himself but provided Christ as a propitiation specifically so that he could be both 'just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.

I am not picking at small aspects of revelation which you may see differently but the whole basis of the revelation wherein God 'justifies the ungodly'; He does not deny his own nature.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/5 13:42Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Sin after Salvation - an illustration

Hello beenblake,

In addition to Ron's comments there are other concerns. The parable does a decent job of relating the promise of God in regards to how the Blood presently deals with what we have done. However, it really makes no mention of the promise of God in regards to how the Cross presently deals with what we are.

God has made provision for deliverance from sin here and now. Unlike the provision of the Blood which directly blots out sins from the remembrance of God, the provision of the Cross deals in a more indirect approach by not removing the sin but the sinner. Our old man was (past tense) crucified with Him. (Romans 6:6). Sin, the old master, is still there, but the slave who served him has been put to death. This delierance is so real that John wrote, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."(1 John 3:9). John isn't saying we will never sin again but he is saying that sin is not the nature of that which is born of God. The life of Christ has been planted in us by new birth and its nature is not to commit sin. The parable seems to be focused on the glorication of the saints in the future, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it fails to set forth the hope of glory here and now, in Christ.


In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/10/5 15:13Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
If we did not have the law, we would not sin.



God created us with conscience. We actually don't need the Law to know that we've sinned against God.
It's a cute anology though, a few minor adjustments and a little work and it will be good to print and pass out ;-)


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D.Miller

 2005/10/5 17:10Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

I understand your concern and how the story could be misinterpreted. I don't think it advocates that God killed his Holiness for it says a few sentences later that "John still hated smoking..."

"Technically it is God's righteousness requirement which was satisfied by the death of His Son in our place..." Exactly. The law died with Jesus. The law that binds us in slavery. The only reason Satan had any power over us is due to this law. The Devil would accuse us of our sin day and night before God. However, since Christ resolved the law by satisfying it's demands on our behalf, the Devil has no power anymore.

Obviously, God made a sacrifice for us. He gave us His son. This was an act of love for us. This act, did not change God, but changed us. Even still, God sacrificed something of Himself. He did not change, but He still gave something on our behalf. What did He give? What did Jesus represent that God sacrificed?

Jesus represented the law and the sin of all of humanity. God took our sins upon Himself and killed them. How can that be? How can God, who is Holy, right, and just, take our sins upon Himself? This confounds all of human logic and reasoning. For God to take our sins, He would have to say, "It was I who sinned. I sinned, and I will suffer the punishment." If God is Holy, how can He do that?

How can God, who is Holy, right, and just, take our sins upon Himself? This is the big question.

Well, He can only if the person who sinned willing submits unto His authority and gladly accepts God as God, meaning, this person accepts God's counsel. However, God cannot take the sins of a person who does not submit unto His authority. For anyone who does not submit unto God is challenging Him. And being God is supreme and Holy, He cannot allow anyone to challenge His authority.

So, for all those that accept Jesus as thier Lord and Savior, meaning, all those who submit unto His authority, are saved. They can have sin and be in the presence of God. However, those who do not submit unto His authority, may not have sin and be under God's presense.

Now, it must be established in this, that true submittance unto any authority can only come through love, through a choice, through a willingness. Love is nothing more than a will toward a person. It is a will for good. And so, God doesn't people to submit to His authority under fear. He wants people to submit under love, willingly for the good of all.

In order to do this, God would have to love us first. He would have to submit unto us first. And so, He did. He submitted unto our authority. When He did, we killed him. How else could we kill Him? We were given power over Him. God willingly submitted in love unto us, so that we may in turn love Him.

Anyway, I think I have veered off track. The point of this all is, that God gave a part of Himself to us. He gave us Christ. He loved us first.

I tried to illuminate this in the story by saying, "John killed a part of himself." I guess that is a bit misleading. I couldn't say, "John gave his son unto death," because if He had a son, he would be married already. What is he doing looking for a wife, if he's already married?

I suppose there is not adequate way to really illustrate what God did for us. It is something that cannot be explained. It must be experienced.

I will have to think on this.

Lastly, though, I will say that I am a firm believer that we should build each other up in faith. Our goal should not be to "correct" or judge on another, for this is destructive, but rather to unite each other in love and encouragement.

And so, I will try to find a different way to word the above since I can see it bothers you so much.

Thank you for your concern.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/7 8:48Profile
Conqueror
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Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re:

God did not kill any part of himself. He is still the same God. Unchangeable, infinite and eternal. He cannot change or ever be anything other than himself. If you remove something from Him then something is missing. If something is missing from God then that means He is less than He was. God cannot be less anything. If that capacity was there He would not be God.

When Jesus died and rose again, God was still fully and wholly God. There was not an instant when God wasn't fully God. Again, to have that happen would mean that God became "less".

Parables and stories and fables can be dangerous.

Why not just tell the True Story? How Jesus came to earth, lived among us, took our sins upon himself, shed his blood and died for us to forgive our sins and then rose again, sent His Spirit to dwell in us and will be returning for us.

This is the story that the apostles told and the story the saints throughout church history has told. Its the highest story. No story on earth is better than that.

 2005/10/7 9:16Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I can see how you feel the story does not speak well to what Christ does in us now. I did not want to focus on our transformation for this parable was not meant for anyone who has not been transformed by Christ. Rather, it is for those who have been born again. I did not feel I need to repeat something they already knew.

The parable is to illustrate that our hope is in God's promises as manifested through Christ.

Many Christians become saved and think that in thier transformation they are complete. They think that they God has made them completely new, and that's it. Many teachers and pastors make it seem like we can overcome all our sin due to this transformation. That is just not true.

Our hearts have been changed. This is true. We have been given a new heart, and by this, a new nature. Our new nature is one of love and goodness. It does not like sin. In fact, sin stirs such negativity within us that we become disgusted by it.

However, we still live in corrupted fleshly bodies. And so, while we do not mean or want to sin, we still do. This is a fact we all live with.

In these earthly bodies, it is impossible to be without sin. It cannot be done unless we are God Himself. We are not. Our transformation has not been completed. We have not been given our new heavenly bodies. There is not a Christian on earth who does not sin.

That is why Christians still sin after being saved. It is not because they are not saved, or because God is not strong enough to keep us from sinning. It is because we are not yet complete. We walk in faith. Our faith and hope is in things unseen. It is in something that has not yet happened. Once it does happen, then we won't need faith and hope, for we will be complete.

When we reach Heaven, then we will be truly born of God. We will be complete. We will be of God. We will be transformed to the likeness of Christ. We will be given new heavenly bodies. We will reign as Kings. We will share in God's glory.

Many people don't get this, and they become so hung up on thier sins that it destroys thier walk with God. This story was intended to illustrate this and encourage Christians to keep thier focus on Christ and the hope of Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:19 (NLT)
And if we have hope in Christ only for this life, we are the most miserable people in the world.

Colossians 3:1-4 (NLT)
1 Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. 2 Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. 3 For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory.

It is dangerous for us to put too much hope in what we have now. This earthly life is like a living in a cardboard box next to a garbage dumpster versus living in a mansion on the beach with great wealth and riches.

In other words, if you knew that tomorrow you would win the lottery and be the richest person on earth, would sit around and talk about how wonderful you have it living today? No, you would constantly talk about how you were going to win lottery tomorrow?

If we truly believed in Jesus and all the promises of God, we wouldn't sit around and talk about how great we have it now, we would be telling everyone of how great and wonderful it will be in Heaven. We would preach about the ressurection of Jesus. We would spread the good news. We would live in Hope.

Thank you for sharing your concern. I do understand there is an abundant life to be had in Christ now. For that, I rejoice. However, I believe the hope of Heaven is much, much more important. But that is just me. If you should disagree, that's okay. I love you just the same.

In love,
Blake













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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/7 9:26Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Conqueror,

"Parables and stories and fables can be dangerous." I once agreed with you on this. But my I have changed.

Jesus taught in parables and stories. He never once came out and told people it exactly. He never once said, "I am God. Worship me."

Stories and illustrations speak to a person's heart. People's beliefs are centered in thier heart, not thier mind. Jesus did not debate with people's minds or did He deal with them. He dealt with people's hearts. And in order to touch a people's hearts, He told stories.

Thanks for sharing.

In love,
Blake



_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/7 9:32Profile





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