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4everhis85
Member



Joined: 2005/7/30
Posts: 13


 Art and the church

Tell me what some of your thoughts are about art and the church. Like that of a ministry through the means of painting, drawing, sculpting, etc. Not just using it though as a means of evangelism, but having camps like one does for sports but for the arts(this also includes drama and music)
Do you think this has an appropriate place in the church?
What do you think of a service that would have painting, sculpting, or drama with the sermon?
What would the effects be on culture if this were to happen, reaching the people in the art world(EG. homosexuals, new agers, etc) How would this effect the modern church?

 2005/10/5 0:55Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Art and the church

Yes, I think the arts are a natural extension of worship, teaching, even helping to break language barriers for the Gospel.

However, Christian art should always honor God's word...

[img align=left]http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/110images/sl16_images/Rembrandt_Descent.jpg[/img]






...not cheapen it or cash in on it.[img align=left]http://www.christianshirts.net/images/designs/small/kingkings150.gif[/img]



_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/5 2:16Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re: Art and the church

Well having such things in our service would mean that the preaching time would get shorter. Hardly an improvement. Also I don't see the total length of services getting longer either.

Actually its more of a question if it would honour God. But I don't think its a good idea to give art a bigger place within church services.

But then again, after you have attracted people with this, then what?
If this is merely something to attract people and nothing more it would simply not add anything after. What would you teach those people?

Well we have certain 'guest-services' which do contain some drama. Depending on what that drama contains it could be good, but I don't think it could replace a good spoken message.


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/5 5:18Profile
4everhis85
Member



Joined: 2005/7/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
Well having such things in our service would mean that the preaching time would get shorter. Hardly an improvement. Also I don't see the total length of services getting longer either



Length? Just wondering where u are coming from on this. To clairify, i was intending for such things to be going on while the sermon is taking place, kinda like a dramatic reading, or performed sermon as you may call it. The pastor would still be giving his sermon as normal, but with the addition of these, not for entertainment but for further expression, comprehenssion and all around worship.

I don't think this is a question if it will honor God. we are to do all things for His glory and honor. And since God is the ultimate creator/artist, just look around at the things he has made, humans, things in nature, all we try to do is imatate this charachteristic of God.

As an attraction, sure, art is very attarcting, but isn't music a part of alot of common services?

Quote:
But then again, after you have attracted people with this, then what?



warrior4jah, i'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean attract to the actual service that narmally takes place on Sunday, or to the church in general?

I ask this c/ it is a common misconception that "chruch" takes place at a certain ginven time and place and if your not a regular Sunday attender, then well your not "doing" church.

But yes, a art camp would be an inital attraction to a lot of people. And hopefully it would remain as an ongoing ministry, but the attratction would be to people groups that normally wouldn't even set foot in a church, or their friends,. I mean seriously, the artist community in general has typically been shuned by the church, mabe not so much shuned as neglected, how awesome would it make the artistic community know they have a place and function in the church?

I addmit warrior4jah, that such things form a more contempory church would be hard, but it is something that needs to bee looked at and it natural tendency would prob lead to a sub group in the church, a cell group if you will that would allow for these individuals to feel comfortable with others that talk and communicate like they do.

 2005/10/5 13:43Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: How then shall we live?

4everhis85,

I personally have a deep appreciation for the arts. I believe that the best of Christian art history has enhanced my walk with Christ in deep ways. There is something you said that shed light on your frustration perhaps...

Quote:
how awesome would it make the artistic community know they have a place and function in the church?


It is my feeling that culture in the last 200 years in general has made a switch from athestic priority to enconomic priorities. Churches are influenced by this environment...this is not a criticism just an observation.

I personally lament this normative disregard for astethics in our world, because it not only devalues "artsy" things like painting, writing, music, and drama, but it also devalues human beings gifted in these areas. Creativity is one of the supreme evidences that we are not lower animals, but beings made in the image of God. Even though this is true, it's sentiment seems frivilous and seems hard to appreciate by many Christians.

Theology in the last 200 years has followed closely the secular developments away from astetics, away from form to pure function. The finer things in the journey of life are mistrusted as "entertainment"...A works value is often measured by statistics and spreadsheets. Our modern spirituality is a strangely pragmatic functionality devoid of the rich artistic spirituality that used to be our heritage as western Christians. This heritage may have seen it's splendorous peak in the works of Michaelangelo, Rembrandt, and Bach, but it had it's roots in the worshipful and comforting scultpures and paintings shared between early Christians on catacomb walls.

Today, our world is different.The only Christian endeavors that seem useful are making further converts and building political influence. If art can be demonstrated to contribute to these causes, the artist community will be as welcome as the business and political communities are in the church.

Like I said, I do not think this is unique to your local church, and I don't want to hold Christians responsible for cultural norms that are beyond their control. This is just the age we live in my creative friend.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/10/5 15:40Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 I KNEW A MAN...

I knew a minister who used his paintings in the presentation of the messages ,he's at home with the Lord now. I believe that God the Holy Spirit can use all these things and they can be edifying, however if its just a program, like so many churches do (an example would be the dancing in the spirit craze that hit the charismatic church some time ago only to be followed by the Flag waving ceremonies and on it goes), after awhile it would seem that it could be nothing more than a dead work.
I personally have a great deal of appreciation for the christian arts and do believe they have a part in the church, I guess it takes those who are called to do such a ministry and not doing the ministry just for the sake of doing it. Does that make sense?
:-) Blessing Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/10/5 16:47Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Quote:
Length? Just wondering where u are coming from on this. To clairify, i was intending for
such things to be going on while the sermon is taking place, kinda like a dramatic reading, or
performed sermon as you may call it. The pastor would still be giving his sermon as normal, but
with the addition of these, not for entertainment but for further expression, comprehenssion and all around worship.



So the other things would take place during the sermon if I understand correctly?
But how are you to teach your people then?
About the sermon (or something else) at the pulpit, that's indeed ment to honour God. (as is
the rest of the entire service)

Indeed we would [b]not[/b] say that we would do these things for our entertainment, but that
line seems thinner then ever nowadays. I think we should be careful about this.

Perhaps a valid question we can ask ourselves is if our churches are functioning properly.
(Thus honouring and exalting God)

Quote:

I don't think this is a question if it will honor God. we are to do all things for His glory
and honor. And since God is the ultimate creator/artist, just look around at the things he has made, humans, things in nature, all we try to do is imatate this charachteristic of God.



Well I agrea that you can do all things for His glory and honor with the exception of sin.



As an attraction, sure, art is very attarcting, but isn't music a part of alot of common services?


Music is part of a common service. I have to say that I'm very fond of music myself, especially praise music. Even tho the goal of such music is not to primarily entertain or enjoy ourselves
but to honour God.

Quote:

warrior4jah, i'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean attract to the actual service that

narmally takes place on Sunday, or to the church in general?

I ask this c/ it is a common misconception that "chruch" takes place at a certain ginven time

and place and if your not a regular Sunday attender, then well your not "doing" church.



Well doing 'church' has absolutely no value in itself. Especially if you just go to church for the social aspect of it or because of the good music, etc.
I think some people can honor God by singing a certain song while another won't honor God by doing the same.

Quote:

But yes, a art camp would be an inital attraction to a lot of people. And hopefully it would remain as an ongoing ministry, but the attratction would be to people groups that normally wouldn't even set foot in a church, or their friends,. I mean seriously, the artist community in general has typically been shuned by the church, mabe not so much shuned as neglected, how awesome would it make the artistic community know they have a place and function in the church?



Well having a camp is not a bad idea. Furthermore, if someone has been convinced of Gods existance and sin he/she will go to a church anyhow regarding if the person is artistic or not.

Quote:

I addmit warrior4jah, that such things form a more contempory church would be hard, but it is something that needs to bee looked at and it natural tendency would prob lead to a sub group in the church, a cell group if you will that would allow for these individuals to feel comfortable with others that talk and communicate like they do.



Well I just have the idea that even tho a great concept at first glance it could drift of to something ugly. Then again that purely depends on how the people in the church are with God.
I would rather see that there will be more Biblestudies and such in my church.. perhaps after the service so you can talk about it with eachother or.. something like that.


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/6 15:34Profile
ruhappy
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Joined: 2005/3/9
Posts: 14


 Re: Art and the church

everything added to the churh that gives glory to the man is taking away from the purpose we meet for. then someone always has to put it to the test and see how far they can take it.
i have seen it happen with dance. see how worldly it can be and still be called holy. and people just sit there and take it like stupid sheep!

 2005/10/6 15:44Profile
4everhis85
Member



Joined: 2005/7/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

I do agree that this whole thing can be taken way too far but anything has that potential, i mean heack, just look at preachiing, so i don't find that as being viable.
but i do think that having something like the service i descirbed would be distracting to a good number of people, myself including, and it does show the greatest potential for becoming something that it isn't like dance. I just read about a couple churces in a magazine called, onmission, that do things like this.
BUT! i do think that art has a huge place in the church! It is such a huge evangelistic tool and despite what warrior,...whatever said(sorry about that!) it is a huge thing for an artist to feel like they can go to a place that has this community,along with good biblical teaching! But ya gotta understand warrior, artists arn't like a lot of people, we communicate differently, worship differently, read and think in an abnormal fashion, and usually we have to suppress ourselves and don't feel like we can be ourselves in the church community, c/ no one really does get us, just other artist. So an art ministry would create a fellowship for this people group! Something that would be HUGE!
I can testify to haveing such a group, I go to Moody Bible Institute and we have an Art club! WE get together and just create, fellowship, and i do mean fellowship, c/ ya see, when ya do art or are working on a piece it is VERY personal and true fellowship takes place as we edify eachother and see what biblical principals are on eachothers minds or what things we are struggleing with c/ it all relfects in what we create!!!!!
So forget the servic, although in can be intergrated in there, but just not on the levels i brought up. What do you all think can be done or how this should look?

 2005/10/11 1:43Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

If I may make one comment on your post please?
Jam 1:5 and if any of you do lack wisdom, let him ask from God, who is giving to all liberally, and not reproaching, and it shall be given to him; (youngs trans)

And we know that wisdom is the proper application of knowledge. There is no "sub-group" in the body of Christ. If those predisposed toward the arts in thier expression of faith, in praise and worship as well as the delivery of God's Word, seperate themselves from the body , that's sin. The Body of Christ isn't suposed to have seperate little groupings but we'er to be one Body of believers working to glorify Christ and obey His teachings.
The wisdom is needed because artists have to come to the same knowledge that all christians have to come to, and that is , Everything we are started with Christ and will end with Christ, ALL GRACE , nothing of myself I bring. That's why talented people must be "ALL" the more careful to seek "Wisdom" from God so as to not be executing thier service as "DEAD WORKS" in the sight of God. There is a way the seems right in the sight of man.....
I do enjoy the arts , however those who do these types of ministeries need to have wisdom from above to do them In The Body of Christ,one body many members, and not apart from the Body of Christ, Let all things be done to edify. :-)
God Bless Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/10/11 7:48Profile





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