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philologos
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 The New Covenant and Abraham

"and mabye this needs to be another forum but: Was the new convenant in effect in Abraham and others that knew of Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in them?" Greg Gordon.

I often find that a useful way of identifying a concept is to identify its 'opposite'. So what is the 'opposite' to New Covenant? The expression is always used comparitively. You can't have a 'New' covenant without having an earlier covenant. Every time we use the phrase we should remind outselves that it means 'New' in comparison to an earlier or 'Old' covenant.

The earlier covenant is mind is the 'Sinaitic Covenant'. It is important to stress that the New Covenant is 'New' in comparison to the Sinaitic Covenant. Now I know I shall get some folks around my neck for this, but the New Covenant is a Replacement Covenant!

But there were covenants earlier than Sinai. Abraham was never under the Sinaitic Covenant, so in that sense neither the 'Old Covenant' nor the 'New Covenant' really relate to him. It is as thought someone from your side of the Atlantic were to ask me "Are you from Canada or the USA?" The question is not relevant to me.

Your question includes a reference to 'Abraham and others that knew of Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in them?' This deserves a comment or two but I will await some reactions before continuing... that's how debates are supposed to work. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/15 8:56Profile
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 Re: The New Covenant and Abraham

Quote:
Abraham was never under the Sinaitic Covenant, so in that sense neither the 'Old Covenant' nor the 'New Covenant' really relate to him.



I believe that to some extent the covenant made with Abraham relates to the New covenant. It included the promise of all families of the earth being blessed in Abraham's Seed. To us, of gentile extraction its not really a new covenant because before we were "strangers from the covenants of promise" for us it is a first, for the people of Israel who believed it was new. The tree that we were grafted into has its roots in Abraham I beieve, not in Siani.

I agree very much with a comment in a differnt thread that the 10 commandments were made with the physical descendants of Moses. God of course, has always had a moral standard, we see Joeseph centuries before the law fleeing from Potiphar's wife. Not because it was against the 10 commandments but because it was evil in the sight of the Lord. I think that the folowing quote from the Galatian letter explains somthing of the realationship between the promise mde to Abraham, the laws given to moses, and the covenant which we live in.

Gal 3:14-19 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


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Stuart

 2003/11/15 10:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Now I know I shall get some folks around my neck for this, but the New Covenant is a Replacement Covenant!


Didn't Jesus say that he was not come to do away with the old convenant?

Quote:
But there were covenants earlier than Sinai. Abraham was never under the Sinaitic Covenant, so in that sense neither the 'Old Covenant' nor the 'New Covenant' really relate to him. It is as thought someone from your side of the Atlantic were to ask me "Are you from Canada or the USA?" The question is not relevant to me.


Do covanents just pertain to certain people, don't all the convenants pertain to Christians (inheriter's of the promise)?

Quote:
The tree that we were grafted into has its roots in Abraham I beieve, not in Siani.


Maybe both?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/17 17:05Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The tree that we were grafted into has its roots in Abraham I beieve, not in Siani.
Quote:
Maybe both?





I can't see it. In the writngs of the NT we see Abraham used so often as an illustration of God's dealings with us. On the contrary we see that which pertains to Siani contrasted with the new covenant. For example 2 Cor 3:8-9[i] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [/i]



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Stuart

 2003/11/17 18:18Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Didn't Jesus say that he was not come to do away with the old convenant?



No, He didn't. What He said was Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil..

He did fulfil the law and the prophets, but then what?

Here are a couple of key scriptures:
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19

This tells us 2 vital things about the law
1. it was in addition to something earlier. it was added
2. it was only ever intended to be temporary until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

and the second quotation:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
This tells us that the covenant of the law and the Aaronic priesthood was a unit, and that now that the priesthood has changed there is, of necessity a change also of the law. Heb 7:12

and a third
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb 10:8,9
this last quotation tells us very clearly that they could not co-exist. It was necessary to take away the Sinai Covenant/Law so that the second (New Covenant) could be established.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/17 18:30Profile
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 Re:

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No, He didn't. What He said was Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil..


ok agreed.

But what about this point:
[b]Genesis 15:7 (kjv)[/b] - And I will establish my convenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an [u]everlasting covenant[/u], to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

If its an [u]everlasting covenant[/u] then will it pass away?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/18 2:24Profile
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 Re: owlam - age-enduring

>

Quote:
If its an everlasting covenant then will it pass away?


In fact, lots of 'everlasting' things have already passed away. Here is a typical example:
Ex 27:20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. {to burn: Heb. to ascend up}
21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

this for ever is your same word 'everlastingly'.

this is the OnlineBible definition of the OT word:
"05769 ‘owlam o-lawm’ or ‘olam o-lawm’

from 05956; TWOT-1631a; n m

AV-ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity"

The word really means 'age-enduring' and without getting into bacon-slicer dispensationalism we have to recognise that the scriptures do speak of 'ages', plural.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/18 4:39Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Genesis 15:7 (kjv) - And I will establish my convenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.



a second point arising from Greg's earlier post. This original thread referred to Abraham and the New Covenant. What I tried to do in my earliest post was to distinguish between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Sinai Covenant. I say 'distinguish' rather than 'separate'. There are many different ways of regarding the relationship between distinguishable things (this begins to sound like the thread on Trinity) but it is important 'not to confound the persons' or in this context it is important 'not to confound the covenants'.

According to Galatians 4:17 the 'law' came 430 later than the promise, and as we have observed was 'added' and only 'until' the seed should come to whom the promise was made. A few verses earlier Galatians tells us that 'the seed.. is Christ' and at the end of the chapter it tells us that if we are Christ's, then we are Abraham's seed.

There is an interesting 'if-then' statement here which should interest the programmer boffins among our readership. Also, according to Galatians 4:29 'if Christ's - then heirs according to the promise. This is an important line in Galatians. By putting us into Christ God has made us Abraham's seed and (consequently?) heirs according to the promise. This has implications that may generate yet another thread; 'whose is the land'? (dare we explore this one?)

but lets stick with Abraham. The promises given to Abraham were 'everlasting' and perhaps unconditional? But the promises given to the nation of Israel at Sinai were highly 'conditional'. Another classic 'if-then' statement..Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

time for a pause I think,
...to be continued


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/19 4:41Profile
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 Re:

The power of the covenant that God made with Abraham is this: And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." Genesis 17:7 The power of the promise of God to be God to Abraham and all his descendants after him, is the working of the New Covenant.

The power of the covenant between God and man comes through the working of the Holy Spirit. All of those who are born of God are His children. Man is justified by the law of faith, which comes by the hearing of the word of God. The word "word" is translated from the Greek word rhema. Logos is the written word, rhema is the spoken word. So thus our faith comes from God by hearing Him speak to us. Only those who are born of the Spirit can know the attributes of God. A natural man can not.

For what purpose did the priestly order of Melchizedec serve prior to the incarnation of Christ?

As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/2 17:43Profile
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 Re:

your quote: For what purpose did the priestly order of Melchizedec serve prior to the incarnation of Christ?

We are not told what purpose it served to the people of Salem where Melchizedek was king and priest of the Most High God, but genuine priesthood is always mediatorial. The true priest is a living link between God and man. However, the record of Melchizedek serves us all in another way in that he is the only king-priest mentioned in scripture. For the whole period of the law priests and kings were clearly differentiated. Kings came from Judah, Priests from Levi. When Uzziah tried to cross the line he became leprous.

For 1000 years from Abraham to David there is no further reference to Melchezek, and then suddently a promise of a priest not of the Aaronic order comes through the prophet David. This Messianic psalm [Psalm 110] predicts that Christ's priesthood will not be of the Aaronic variety but of Melchizedek's i.e. a priest-king. There is no further mention of Melchizedek for a further 1000 years and then suddenly he comes into the story again in Hebrews where Christ is revealed as the fulfillment of David's prophecy.

Christ's priesthood combines kingship and priesthood. Melchizedek is referred to as priest of the most High God. In Hebrews Christ is declared to be the HIGHpriest according to the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was the pattern for king-priest but Christ is the reality.

Zechariah also prophesied of a 'priest upon a throne' [Zech 6:13] Aaronic priests did not have thrones. I can't help but wonder what Zechariah made of his own prophecy. :-P

Christ now reigns as a priest and the throne of David has become a throne of grace. All His kingly authority is exercised in mediation between God and man. Coming to Him we now find mercy and grace to help in time of need.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/2 18:15Profile





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