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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
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 Re:

Quote:
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2Thes2:12,13)



Sounds like divine judgment to me!
Note what is written before this verse:
"They perish BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH AND SO BE SAVED" 2 Thes. 2:10

Another thought comes to me. The preceeding verses speak about the HOLDING BACK of the lawless one, and his SECRET POWER. vs, 5ff

This idea dovetails with the recent thread "The thousand years" and the debate over whether Satan - is to be held back in the "Millenium" (ie future) or he is held back now.
From this scripture, it would seem like deception is part of that present "holding back" - ie the devils's schemes are covert.

This does bring us to the original thread topic: What seems right ex ritualistic activities such as annointing, may not only be inneffective, but may even part of demonic deception.

Delusion: Oh - what a terrible judgment for trying to use God to accomplish what we want, while not turning to him.


Diane


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Diane

 2005/10/7 8:18Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Only the precious Name of Jesus!

Hi Diane,

You said:

Quote:
This does bring us to the original thread topic: What seems right ex ritualistic activities such as annointing, may not only be inneffective, but may even part of demonic deception.


Quote:
Delusion: Oh - what a terrible judgment for trying to use God to accomplish what we want, while not turning to him.


You are so right in what you say. Paul told us to be imitators of him as he was of Christ (1Cor 11:1). It is for this reason I posted “If you think this is useful, Will you?” and “Am I a tare, are you a tare?”

The reason I posted these is to underscore that Paul shows us how he prayed in Ephesians 1 and 3. What we do today, and I believe since the early beginning of the Church Age, is short circuiting the work of the Holy Spirit – Christ in you. Paul travailed in labor until Christ was formed in the believers he wrote to.

We have high profile TV evangelists who “baptize with fire.” Other Christian leaders attend these meetings and “spread” the fire to churches. Are we surprised that we are deceived? I have been at these meetings. People come right of the floor, some several feet. They will fall on the floor in some form of trance which they call “resting in the spirit.”

In an earlier post you wrote:
Quote:
I am thinking that God never asked us to seek (first) the gift of discernment, or any other gift but to seek HIM, to let God transform our MINDS, to submit our WILLS to God, to let the Word convict us, walk in obedience by faith, REPENT, etc etc.


I agree with you 100 percent, in that we have to let God transform our minds through the Spirit of Jesus Who lives in us. As I explained in the next post, Paul exhorts us to desire the “greater gifts.” Also, Jesus referred to speaking in “other tongues.” In Acts there are several accounts where this was something associated with what some call the “second” work of the Holy Spirit.

What has happened and is happening at an ever faster pace is that we force the gifts. Some Pastors will lead their flocks in repeating “his tongue,” in the misguided notion that more people will “get it too.” This is an invitation for the devil to sow his seeds. In the third wave movement, we have gone leaps and bounds forward to this – what I believe to be – deception and judgment on the Church.

What should happen to a person when Christ is formed in them? The fruit of the Spirit should be evident. If that isn’t there, one has to question the validity of the “spiritual gifts” being manifested. A “spirit-filled” – demonstrated by the gift of tongues - elder from a Charismatic church started an affair with my first wife to “lead her to the Lord.” I, not for one moment believe that the spirit that filled that man, was the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, what is the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer? This is what Jesus said:

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Why do so many Christians worship the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus. If the Holy Spirit truly lives in us, would He not lead us to do what Jesus told us He would do: glorify Jesus, not Himself? The Holy Spirit will not draw us to Himself but to all that Jesus taught us, and since He is the Spirit of Adoption we should be led to cry out Abba! Father!

The guiding by the Holy Spirit into all truth does include the ability for a true believer to discern right from wrong, i.e., the Right Spirit from the wrong spirit.
The fact that there are people who are not comfortable in certain meetings and feel oppressed, while they diligently seek the truth and test all against Scripture, should be a red flag that something is terribly wrong. What becomes even more disconcerting is that when questions are raised, one is immediately sidestepped with comments like: “you shall not attack God’s anointed,” and, “don’t sin against the Holy Spirit.”


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/7 11:41Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: a false spirit, not the Holy Spirit

Hans, If you don't mind, I am pursuing this discussion because it is helping me process some things that I have been through in the past (exactly as you have been describing), and also because just yesterday I was encouraged to join a nearby "house church". I am already sensing some discomfort - along with disappointmnent.

Quote:
Why do so many Christians worship the Holy Spirit?

This is what I fear is happening. However, I would refer to the "Spirit" as actually a false spirit. In a conversation, when I mentioned Jesus' words that "the way is narrow and few find it", I was reproved. Then I was told that really God doesn't want any to perish, and almost everyone is saved. The reason we see no evidence is that they need an "infilling of the Spirit". And I was given some examples of criminals who really "deep down" wanted God. ie they were saved, but didn't show it.

According to this person, we should pray for (invoke) the Spirit to fill those people who don't seem to have victory. However, this thinking removes the burden for salvation; it quenches the possibility of Holy Spirit coviction; and it removes the need of the sinnner to exercise the will and make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE. It gives no hope for the sinner, no biblical direction, and leaves him lost in his sins.
The spiritual journey becomes a passive thing that happens to you. That is scary. Supporters of this thinking are powerful, influencial people, sincerely believing that they are right. You want to like them, get along with them, but you feel like you are getting caught in their web, and are given no room to move.

If one is truly following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they would be led to Christ, not away from him, as you say.

I see that you have seen the bitter fruit of this heretical teaching - as it has caused much harm in your family. That aught to be ample proof that it is demonic.
On the positive side, your terrible experience seems to have given you insight that can help a lot of others.


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Diane

 2005/10/7 17:30Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: a false spirit, not the Holy Spirit


Hi Diane,

I don't mind a bit to continue this thread. It is starting to parallel the thread on Stop Sinning! It is also the reason why I started a website.

As long as I am permitted to speak I will gladly continue. Jesus gave us some very clear warnings, echoed by Paul, Peter, and others, about the deception in the last days, and, the people who would get themselves teachers who would tickle their ears.

Allow me some time, for I have other commitments.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/7 17:46Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re:

Hi Diane,

This is where I am on my walk with the Lord. It is just my opinion and my experience, and I am not even going to say that I am correct, although I do believe that the Holy Spirit led me here.

The Bible tells us to fix my eyes upon Jesus the Author and Perfector of our faith, for He lives in my heart by faith … and …. in all of our hearts according to His word. Yet, we all have different opinions, different experiences, and – if this is possible, a different Jesus: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt.7:22,23)

What did Jesus tell His disciples about the condition one has to be in to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt.19:14) AND: Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt.18:3).

We have to be humble, submit, and obey ALL that Jesus taught us. Not what men have interpreted for us, but for what He tells us in His Word. Jesus asked His Father that we ALL SHOULD BE ONE, and almost 2,000 years later we are not even close; we must be missing something. If the Bible tells us that we will judged for every idle word we speak, Jesus would not have asked His Father for us to be perfected in unity, so we may be one, just for the sake of asking something (John17:23).

Quote:
Then I was told that really God doesn't want any to perish, and almost everyone is saved. The reason we see no evidence is that they need an "infilling of the Spirit".



What about Christ being formed in you? That, when we read Paul's teaching on this, was not quite an instantaneous event.
Quote:
I see that you have seen the bitter fruit of this heretical teaching - as it has caused much harm in your family. That ought to be ample proof that it is demonic. On the positive side, your terrible experience seems to have given you insight that can help a lot of others.


There are many voices today and many interpretations. With all the scholarly dissertations, why would Jesus have asked this question: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luk.18:8). Why did He ask: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luk.6:46).

Did Jesus only refer to clean, moral, and pure living, or, did He also want us to know Him and His Father, and understand the mission of the Holy – His – Spirit? This is where everything comes together: Only if we fully understand the reason why Jesus came to earth as a man, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a woman, will we have a better understanding of the Authority and Power of the Name of Jesus, which is above Every Other Name…..and this is what is often ignored: TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. (Phil.2:11). All that Jesus did was for the Glory of His Father and our Father. As He prayed: not My will be done, but Thy will. He also said: My Father is greater than I; No one has beheld the Father, but the Son; If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. Praise the Lord!

Hebrews 1:
5. Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord [Jesus Christ], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

Colossians 1:
15 He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him [Jesus Christ] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him [Jesus Christ} and for Him [Jesus Christ].
17 He [Jesus Christ] is before all things, and in Him [Jesus Christ] all things hold together.
18 He [Jesus Christ] is also head of the body, the church; and He[Jesus Christ] is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself [Jesus Christ] will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him [Jesus Christ],
20 and through Him [Jesus Christ] to reconcile all things to Himself [the Father], having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

All true born again believers are reconciled to God the Father through Jesus Christ, and all are ministers of reconciliation, i.e., we have to tell the world that Jesus died for all sin once for all, so all who believe are reconciled to the Father.

Therefore: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Rom.8:15), AND, And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt (Mar.14:36), AND, And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father (Gal.4:6).

The Power and Authority in the Name of Jesus originate from the Father Who made Jesus all in all. The Holy Spirit leads us to cry out Abba! Father! If this is not a reality in our lives, is the Holy Spirit really formed in us? If we are led to call on the Holy Spirit, or asking Jesus who told us to ask the Father, are we led by the Spirit of Adoption/the Spirit of His Son? Don’t we also take away from the reconciling work of Jesus on the cross and do we fulfill God’s intent as written in Ephesians 3?

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

We take away from the true purpose of God’s plan for the ages that the Church might make known to the principalities and powers the manifold wisdom of God, that is the mystery of God, Christ in us the hope of glory!

Please forgive me if this post is too long, I didn’t know how to write this any shorter. I will address some of the issues with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, if you are interested. It is my conviction that this is what God ordained before the foundation of the world through Jesus Christ AND the Church. If we apply our own doctrines around these written truths in His Word, we will be deceived, and I believe we will invoke religious spirits.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/8 19:57Profile





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